Tag Archives: attic condensation

My New Riding Arena Has Condensation and Birds

My New Riding Arena Has Condensation and Birds

Reader BETH in LEBANON writes:

“Last fall I had an indoor riding arena built 70 x 152 x 16 that had a built in vapor barrier. The building has cathedral trusses. This is a stand alone building with no stable attached. I have had condensation in the building, especially at certain times. The floor is crushed limestone. I have experienced a bird problem and am thinking of adding a ceiling and maybe indoor panels to keep the birds out and from roosting. I also had been debating about adding insulation. Here are my questions:1. What recommendations would you have re: condensation issues when I add ceiling and maybe the indoor metal panels? 2. If I did add insulation, what type(s) do you use in this situation to provide best outcome and address condensation? I am trying to understand potential temperature impacts in extreme seasons; if it is in the 90’s outside what can I expect the differential to be inside and same with winter. I realize in winter the footing will impact potential difference due to the size of the cold floor.3. Any other comments/recommendations for this type of facility?”

Your ‘built in vapor barrier’ is most likely not a vapor barrier, but rather an Integral Condensation Control (ICC). Read more about ICCs here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/integral-condensation-control-2/ 

ICCs work well when provided with adequate eave air intakes and ridge exhausts. Without these, you are likely to continue to have condensation issues, even with a ceiling installed.

Your moisture is coming up through your crushed limestone and from your horses. Ideally a heavy vapor barrier (like 15 mil) would have been placed under your limestone to prevent moisture from coming up.

Before putting in a ceiling, you will want to reach out to whoever engineered your building, to make sure you can remove those largely ineffective and possibly negatively impacting knee braces (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2023/10/knee-braces-in-post-frame-buildings/). You also need to verify those trusses will even support a ceiling, as large span pole barn trusses are rarely designed for this extra weight.

In directly answering your questions:

1) Properly vent your attic space, otherwise expect long term problems

2) You need to be able to keep attic air and outside air at same temperature, could take as much as R-60. My preference would be blown in granulated rockwool, as it is unaffected by moisture, however it is heavy compared to fiberglass. Your choice will likely depend upon weight capacity of trusses.

With a steel liner panel ceiling, you may experience condensation on underside of panels, especially if you under insulate. Without an ability to heat and cool, your interior space will be close in temperature to outside – other than summer temperatures will be more like being under a shade tree.

3) In lieu of an under floor vapor barrier, make sure grade outside of building slopes away at least 10 feet in every direction by at least 5%. If you do not have gutters, get them installed, with downspouts running off again no less than 10 feet from building.

Builder Placed no Vapor Barrier Between Purlins and Roof Steel

Builder Placed no Vapor Barrier Between Purlins and Roof Steel

Almost client ALEX in CLINTON writes:

I recently had a pole barn home built and after we moved in we discovered our roof does not have any form of vapor barrier, just metal right on top of the purlins. Our contractor stated the entire attic is heavily ventilated so the barrier was not needed, which I did not agree. After going back and forth he offered to fix it only one way. Which would be to take fanfold insulation board between each rafter. I felt this would only hide my condensation problems rather than fix it. My question is, would this be a viable option? As well I’ve looked into adding in ventilation fans in the attic to better control the moisture, thoughts on that as well please!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

You have just hit on one of my top peeves when it comes to post frame building contractors and providers – pretending condensation is not going to occur under bare steel roofing installed directly over roof purlins. 

And (even though you did not invest in a Hansen Pole Building) I have to feel we are partially at fault here. 

Why?

Our mission is to assist potential clients so they avoid making crucial errors they will regret forever. In looking back through our records, when you discussed your building needs with us two years ago, we failed – we did not convey to you how important some sort of roof steel condensation control is (at least we neglected to include it in our quotes). 

So now you are left with having spent a great deal of your hard-earned money (or future years of making mortgage payments with hard-earned money) and a home built almost right. 

Let’s start with discussing “heavily ventilated”. To begin with, there is no realistic amount of airflow through an attic capable of eliminating all possibility for condensation. Attic ventilation systems, by Building Code, are very specific as to not only required ventilation, but also correct ratios of intake and exhaust to create proper airflow from eave to ridge. These requirements are based upon building science and studies done on actual full-sized attics. Chances are more than good, your contractor has over done either soffit intakes or ridge exhausts. He or she probably has even used vented soffit in gable end overhangs (sure to mess up proper airflow). 

You can educate yourself further on ventilation requirements here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2023/06/274512/

2018 IRC Attic Ventilation Requirements – Hansen Buildings

Hansen Pole Buildings’ reader asks Mike the Pole Barn Guru how much of the ridge of a pole building ridge needs to have vented closures.

www.hansenpolebuildings.com

Attic ventilation fans, short of creating a wind tunnel, are not going to resolve future challenges.

While your contractor’s proposed solution is sort of right, it would only work if an absolute 100% air seal was achieved. Face it, this is just not going to happen.

So, what are your options?

Easiest would be to have two inches of closed cell spray foam applied directly to the underside of your roof steel.

All other options involve removing roof steel and placing a well-sealed thermal break between roof purlins and roof steel, then reapplying roof steel. Roof steel should be either shifted slightly to right or left to not place same sized screws back into same holes in wood (and original screws should not be used), or to use larger diameter, longer screws. This would be a good time to make sure replacement screws are all powder coated with EPDM gaskets.

What would give a capable thermal break?

Fan-fold insulation, reflective radiant barriers and faced metal building insulation are all possible options – provided all seams are tightly sealed. Solid sheathing roof with OSB (Oriented Strand Board) or plywood with either 30# felt or a synthetic ice and water shield between sheathing and roofing would also be a possibility.

Hopefully you have not made your final payment to your builder, so you as yet have some amount of leverage. However unless this was addressed specifically in your contract documents (we do address it in ours) chances are you are looking at some significant out of pocket expense to cure something easily and affordably solved at time of construction.

Dear Guru: Why Vapor Barrier?

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I constructed a pole building with the help of Iowa based Amish group. They put up the main structure including metal roof. Due to city codes, I enclosed the 40x60x12 structure using 1/2 osb, house wrap and then vinyl siding. I want to use paper faced 4x8x4″ Styrofoam sheets on the walls, and roll insulation for the ceiling. My question is, do I use a vapor barrier on the walls after putting in the Styrofoam or none at all? And for the ceiling I would assume I would attach a vapor barrier to the bottom side of the trusses and lay the R-25 unfaced insulation on top of that. I have ridge vent and soffit vents. Thanks for your help! Curt in Center Point, IA DEAR CURT: For a properly performing system, your building should have a vapor barrier on the inside of all walls. The paper facing on the Styrofoam™ panels should be a vapor barrier. In order to perform properly, you need to make sure all edges and joints are tightly sealed, to prevent moisture from entering the wall cavity.

A vapor barrier should NOT be placed across the bottom of the roof trusses. If your building has steel roofing, I am hoping some sort of thermal break (like a reflective radiant barrier or similar) has been installed between the roof purlins and the roof steel, otherwise you are in for a plethora of problems. Warm moist air from your building needs to be able to pass through the ceiling and into the non-conditioned dead attic space, where it can be properly vented out of the ridge vent. You also should consider a greater R value in the attic. According to the North American Insulation Manufacturers Association https://www.naima.org/insulation-knowledge-base/residential-home-insulation/how-much-insulation-should-be-installed.html a minimum of R-38 should be installed in Iowa.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

Dear Pole Barn Guru: We had hail damage to a post frame office building last Summer. Several months prior to the storm we had the side walls spray foam insulated (closed cell) and then framed and dry-walled. We have finally settled up with the insurance company and are ready to “re-skin” the building. The spray foam insulation was a significant expense and if we take off the metal siding the insulation will come off too. Here is my question: Can we simply install another layer of 29 gauge metal siding over the existing siding? Or can we fur out and install a different type of siding? Your input would be greatly appreciated!   KEN in Ft. Collins, CO

DEAR KEN: Although hail damage to steel siding and roofing is unusual, you have now found the downside to spray foam insulation applied to the inside face of it. If you place furring strips on the outside of the existing siding, you are most likely going to end up with the siding on the eave sides extending past the typical steel roof overhangs provided with most pole buildings. Plus, anything other than pre-painted steel siding is likely to come along with a lifetime of having to maintain it. In all probability, your best solution may very well be to install siding of the exact same profile over the existing steel. Screws will need to removed from each panel as you work your way down the wall, and replaced with screws of a larger diameter, as well as longer – in order to properly hold both layers of siding in place. With some patience, the results should turn out satisfactory