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Air Intake, Sliding Door Trolleys, and Footing Costs

This Thursday is another bonus ” ask the Guru” answering questions about proper air intake with no overhangs, replacing sliding door trolleys, and most cost effective footing solution.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am in preliminary stages of designing a post-frame building, that will serve a multitude of functions such as a home gym, work-shop, and area to host family parties. It is a 30′ x 76′ x 20′ tall, with 2 fully enclosed leans 64′ long on each side that span out 16′. I really like Scandinavian style, which utilizes no overhang. My main concern is how to allow for proper air intake if I do zero over-hang since there will not any soffit. Curious for your thoughts. Would you recommend against ‘zero over-hang’? Or do you think there is some work-around for air intake and gutter attachment? Hoping for a quick answer! Thanks in advance : ) SHANE in HARTLAND

DEAR SHANE: In my humble opinion – I would personally go without doors, before I would go without overhangs. For me it is about looks (no overhangs look too industrial for my tastes), functionality (besides being a perfect location for air intake, they do keep your walls much cleaner, provide protection of windows from summer sun, pushes rainfall/snow away from base of building). You can meet Code requirements for air intake via gable vents, however they do not afford nearly as even airflow as to eave intake vents combined with a vented ridge. Gutters can be hung off from eave struts (aka eave girt or eave purlin), however it does increase possibilities of having water back up into one’s wall if an ice dam were to occur.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a quonset with (2) 15’x14′ sliding doors with 4 cannonball style rollers each that need to be replaced. I’m thinking I’ll have to remove the doors, but what is the best way to do this? CODY in MAYNARD

DEAR CODY: If these are one piece doors and not bi-parting, you can remove any end stops and slide door out of rail on one end, replace trolley, then repeat in opposite direction. If doors are bi-parting, you will need to remove doors to replace trolleys (and have plenty of help, as doors will be unwieldy).

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I been debating on what foundation to go with. I’m in Texas 1.5 hours west of Houston. I noticed some going with piers and slab or the wall footing with slab. It’s going to be a post frame house. Possibly shingle roof. What is the best foundation system that will not fail? ANGEL in SEALY

Pole FootingDEAR ANGEL: Your strongest and most affordable foundation will be to use true glulaminated columns, embedded in ground. Regardless of what you pick, it will only be as good as ground it is placed upon. A well prepared site, where clays and organic materials have been removed and proper fill has been placed and compacted every six inches, will greatly improve your chances of having a solid foundation. I would encourage you to consider a steel roof, as shingles have a very short life span (read more here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/10/ask-the-builder/.

This entry was posted in Building Overhangs, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Homes, Ventilation, Pole Barn Heating, Concrete, Footings, Post Frame Home, Budget, Barndominium, Lumber, Professional Engineer, floorplans, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Columns, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

To Vapor Barrier a Ceiling, or Not to Vapor Barrier a Ceiling.

To Vapor Barrier a Ceiling, or Not to Vapor Barrier a Ceiling.

Reader RAY in LAPINE writes:

“Hello, I live in Central Oregon, in climate zone #5. We are located in the High Desert at 4400 ft. The climate is dry with low humidity, occasional snow and cold in the winter. The summer temps are around 80 degrees, with large day to night temperature swings. Our heating hours per year are listed at approximately 7500+ per year. I am wanting to install 2×6 stringers, along with blow in insulation, but so many things are conflicting in my opinion, regarding my building when it comes to vapor barrier, no vapor barrier, heating hours per year, ventilation, etc., so I need your professional opinion. I have a 24×48 Pole barn, with double trusses, rated for 7 pound on the bottom cord. The truss bottoms are at 16ft off the concrete floor and are spaced 12 feet on center. The metal roof panels have dripstop that was factory installed. The walls have house wrap, behind bookshelf girts and was installed when the building was erected. The building has a continuous vented ridge, no soffit vents and is heated using a new, large, catalytic wood stove. I want to heat the building approximately 5-10 days a month, 8 to 10 hours a day for approximately 4 months of the year. So my question is, because of the drip stop panel coating and local heating hours, do I need any form of vapor barrier at the ceiling level or on the face of the purlins to avoid condensation issues??? I was originally going to install 10 mil, fire retardant, mesh reinforced poly on the bottom of the 2×6 stringers/trusses, wall to wall and blow insulation on top of the poly, then install 1/2 plywood painted white. Then I read not to use poly or a vapor barrier under 8000 heating hrs. After reading that, I thought I would use a air permeable product like ADO Insulweb, attached it to the bottom of the 2×6 stringers/trusses and blow insulation on top of that to R38, then install the plywood as stated before. Based on what I’ve read, it sounds like I need to install gable vents to the recommended ventilation ratio. Please provide me with your input and advice. Thank you.”

Spent many a winter day on Mount Bachelor’s slopes back when I lived in Oregon (even 4th of July one year), so am familiar with your turf (my step-brothers also live in your immediate area).

Based upon your information, I would install ceiling plywood and then blow in insulation directly on top of it. Paint your plywood after it is installed and this should be a sufficient vapor retarder. You will need to add gable vents, in lower half of your attic space. For a 24′ x 48′ building, you will need at least 139 square inches of NFVA (net free ventilating area) in each endwall, in order to provide sufficient air intake. This may require more than a single vent in each end.

This entry was posted in Budget, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Roofing Materials, Barndominium, Pole Barn Planning, Trusses, Ventilation, Building Interior and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Attic Ventilation With Trusscore Wall and Ceiling Panels

Attic Ventilation With Trusscore Wall and Ceiling Panels

Reader STACY in NEW BERG wrties:

“Hi, I have a pole building 28’x48′ 16′ high eave height. It’s used as a shop and RV storage. I’m insulating it and planning on heating it with a pellet stove. I’ve read your posts in many instances about (NOT) using a vapor barrier in the ceiling. Ok, that’s great, less work. However, I’m planning on using a fairly new product by Trusscore, wall and ceiling panels. These are a PVC material and can possibly be viewed as a vapor barrier itself, they lock-in tight to each other. The shop roof is 1/2″ Plywood and Tiger paw vapor barrier under 26 gauge Standing seam metal roof. I have a Gable vent powered with an Attic fan programmable by temp and/or humidity. I guess my question is, since I should not be putting up a vapor barrier, and given this material I’m using for the ceiling, should I be adding any venting through the ceiling to allow warm moist air from the shop to pass through the attic space? Seems like that would be wasting heat but, the moisture needs to go somewhere, right? Thanks much.”

Trusscore came about in 2020, as an alternative to painted drywall. It is a ½” thick panel with an unique internal truss design combined with high-strength polymer formulation.

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) is an exceptionally durable material. It has a service life of up to 100 years and can stand up to wear and tear coming with interior wall and ceiling panels in residential, commercial, and agricultural applications.

Scratch, dent, and damage resistance properties make Trusscore Wall and Ceiling Board a great drywall alternative.

Combining PVC material and an internal truss design, you have durable, impact-resistant wall and ceiling panels able to stand up to contact without showing dents, cracks, or damage.

Trusscore products can handle nearly anything being thrown at them. From high-traffic residential spaces, commercial kitchens, to barns and workshops. I will guess you are also insulating at ceiling level, directly above your PVC Panels. You are creating a building “drying to inside” meaning it will be necessary to mechanically dehumidify (reach out to a qualified HVAC provider), otherwise you will have serious condensation problems. I am also concerned about your attic ventilation – as unconditioned dead attic spaces require both air intake and exhausts, in correct proportion. Not following these requirements will likely result in premature degradation of your roof system, or at least mold issues. You can read more on ventilation requirements here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2023/06/274512/

*For those of you who are wondering, Trusscore is not necessarily for those who are faint of pocketbook. Expect to pay somewhere around four dollars per square foot for panels only – roughly 10 times cost of gypsum wallboard (sheetrock).

This entry was posted in Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Ventilation, Building Interior, Budget, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Heating, Constructing a Pole Building and tagged , , , , on by .

Gable Venting a Post Frame Attic

Gable Venting a Post Frame Attic

Reader ALLEN in KIRBY writes:

“30×50 13 foot walls roof is 4-12 pitch I need to vent the attic. What size vents do I need to order? Two, one for each gable end what size do I need?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:
From the 2021 IBC (International Building Code)

1202.2.1 Ventilated attics and rafter spaces. Enclosed attic and enclosed rafter spaces formed where ceilings are applied directly to the underside of the roof framing members shall have cross ventilation for each separate space by ventilating openings protected against the entrance of rain or snow. Blocking and bridging shall be arranged so as not to interfere with the movement of air. An airspace of not less than 1 inch shall be provided between the insulation and the roof sheathing. The net free ventilating area shall be not less than 1/150 of the area of the space ventilated. Ventilators shall be installed in accordance with manufacturer’s installation instructions.

Exception: The net free cross-ventilation area shall be permitted to be reduced to 1/300  provided both of the following conditions are met:
1. In climate zones 6, 7 and 8, a Class 1 or 2 vapor retarder is installed on the warm-in-winter side of the ceiling.
2. At least 40 percent and not more than 50 percent of the required venting area is provided by ventilators located in the upper portion of the attic or rafter space. Upper ventilators shall be located no more than 3 feet below the ridge or highest point of the space, measured vertically, with the balance of the ventilation provided by the eave or cornice vents. Where the location of wall or roof framing members conflicts with the installation of upper ventilators, installation more than 3 feet below the ridge or highest point of the space shall be permitted.

You are not in a Climate Zone 6 or higher. As long as 50-60% of your venting area will be in the lower portion of your attic and 40-50% in the upper three feet, you can meet Code with a NFVA (Net Free Ventilation Area) of five square feet (720 square inches), half of which should be at each end. To give you an idea, www.airvent.com offers 14″ x 24″ rectangular wall louvers with a NFVA of 92.4 square inches each. It would take four of these in each gable end to provide adequate NFVA.

Ventilation, planned in advance, with air intake from enclosed vented soffits and exhaust at ridge yield a better airflow, at lower investment, with far superior aesthetics.

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Insulated Ceiling Vapor Barrier

Should a Vapor Barrier Be Installed in an Insulated Ceiling?

Should you put a vapor barrier in an insulated ceiling or not? I build in a cold climate, where many longtime builders swear that you shouldn’t put a ceiling vapor barrier in. The reasons go something like, “Because you have to let the moisture escape,” or “Because the house has to breathe out the top.” What do the experts say?

Here I will defer to Joe Lstiburek – building scientist and the founding principal of Building Science Corporation:

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:

To heck with the experts — here’s my answer. Plastic vapor barriers should only be installed in vented attics in climates with more than 8,000 heating degree days. You can forego the plastic and use a vapor retarder (kraft-faced insulation or latex ceiling paint) in all other climates except hot-humid or hot-dry climates. In hot-humid climates, attics should not be vented and vapor retarders should not be installed on the interior of assemblies.

In hot-dry climates a vapor retarder should also not be installed, but attics can be vented. All attics — vented or unvented — should have an air barrier (a properly detailed airtight drywall ceiling, for example) regardless of climate.

Omitting a ceiling vapor barrier by arguing that “you have to let the moisture escape” or “because the house has to breathe out the top” is actually correct, in a way. It’s also incorrect, in a way. Now, I’m a real fan (ha, ha) of controlled mechanical ventilation to limit interior moisture levels in cold and mixed climates, as well as to limit other interior contaminants in all climates. In other words, all houses require controlled mechanical ventilation in order to “breathe.” It is also my view that this necessary air change should not happen because of a leaky attic ceiling, attic vents, or even leaky walls. Hence the requirement for an air barrier and controlled mechanical ventilation in all houses regardless of climate.

Having said that, I do not have a problem with relieving some of the moisture load in the house via diffusion. This can be achieved through a roof assembly designed to handle it, such as a vented attic in a moderately cold or mixed climate. It’s important to understand that this is a climate-specific recommendation. In a well insulated attic in a very cold climate (more than 8,000 heating degree days), there is not enough heat loss into an attic from the house to allow for much moisture removal through ventilation. That’s because attic ventilation requires heat loss to remove moisture from attics. Cold air can’t hold much moisture. So ventilating a heavily insulated attic with outside air when it is really cold does not remove moisture. We do not want any moisture to get into an attic in a severely cold climate for this reason. As you move south into regions where it is not so miserably cold, this changes: Hence, the recommendation for a vapor barrier in a severely cold climate but only a vapor retarder in most other locations.

In the old days in severely cold climates, where attics were poorly insulated, it was okay to omit a plastic ceiling vapor barrier. The heat loss from the house warmed the attic sufficiently to allow attic ventilation to remove moisture from the attic. Cold outside air was brought into the attic and warmed up by the escaping heat loss, giving this air the capacity to pick up moisture from the attic and carry it to the exterior. This worked well until we added large quantities of attic insulation. With the added insulation, the attic stayed cold and so did the ventilating air from outside, which was now unable to effectively remove attic moisture. Hence the need to reduce moisture flow into the attic and the need for a vapor barrier.


There’s one other important qualification: Vapor moves in two ways, by diffusion through materials, and by air leakage through gaps and holes in building assemblies. Between the two, air leakage moves far more moisture than vapor diffusion. A vapor barrier in an attic assembly in a severely cold climate with the absence of an air barrier will likely be ineffective. On the other hand, an air barrier (a properly detailed air-tight drywall ceiling, for example) in the absence of a vapor barrier can be effective, since it stops the flow of vapor-laden air. You can’t just install plastic in a ceiling and assume it is also an air barrier. For plastic to be an air barrier, it needs to be continuous, meaning all joints and penetrations must be taped or caulked.

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Ventilation and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Should My Barndominium Have a Vapor Barrier?

Should My Barndominium Ceiling Have a Vapor Barrier?

With barndominiums, shouses (shop/house) and post frame homes becoming immensely popular, I have been learning more than I ever thought I wanted to learn about them. Rather than me just spewing on, today’s expert advice comes courtesy of building scientist Joe Lstiburek.

Insulating WallsPlastic vapor barriers should only be installed in vented attics in climates with more than 8,000 heating degree days. You can forego the plastic and use a vapor retarder (kraft-faced insulation or latex ceiling paint) in all other climates except hot-humid or hot-dry climates. In hot-humid climates, attics should not be vented and vapor retarders should not be installed on the interior of assemblies.

In hot-dry climates a vapor retarder should also not be installed, but attics can be vented. All attics — vented or unvented — should have an air barrier (a properly detailed airtight drywall ceiling, for example) regardless of climate.

Omitting a ceiling vapor barrier by arguing that “you have to let the moisture escape” or “because the house has to breathe out the top” is actually correct, in a way. It’s also incorrect, in a way. Now, I’m a real fan (ha, ha) of controlled mechanical ventilation to limit interior moisture levels in cold and mixed climates, as well as to limit other interior contaminants in all climates. In other words, all houses require controlled mechanical ventilation in order to “breathe.” It is also my view that this necessary air change should not happen because of a leaky attic ceiling, attic vents, or even leaky walls. Hence the requirement for an air barrier and controlled mechanical ventilation in all houses regardless of climate.

Having said that, I do not have a problem with relieving some of the moisture load in the house via diffusion. This can be achieved through a roof assembly designed to handle it, such as a vented attic in a moderately cold or mixed climate. It’s important to understand that this is a climate-specific recommendation. In a well insulated attic in a very cold climate (more than 8,000 heating degree days), there is not enough heat loss into an attic from the house to allow for much moisture removal through ventilation. That’s because attic ventilation requires heat loss to remove moisture from attics. Cold air can’t hold much moisture. So ventilating a heavily insulated attic with outside air when it is really cold does not remove moisture. We do not want any moisture to get into an attic in a severely cold climate for this reason. As you move south into regions where it is not so miserably cold, this changes: Hence, the recommendation for a vapor barrier in a severely cold climate but only a vapor retarder in most other locations.

In the old days in severely cold climates, where attics were poorly insulated, it was okay to omit a plastic ceiling vapor barrier. The heat loss from the house warmed the attic sufficiently to allow attic ventilation to remove moisture from the attic. Cold outside air was brought into the attic and warmed up by the escaping heat loss, giving this air the capacity to pick up moisture from the attic and carry it to the exterior. This worked well until we added large quantities of attic insulation. With the added insulation, the attic stayed cold and so did the ventilating air from outside, which was now unable to effectively remove attic moisture. Hence the need to reduce moisture flow into the attic and the need for a vapor barrier.

There’s one other important qualification: Vapor moves in two ways, by diffusion through materials, and by air leakage through gaps and holes in building assemblies. Between the two, air leakage moves far more moisture than vapor diffusion. A vapor barrier in an attic assembly in a severely cold climate with the absence of an air barrier will likely be ineffective. On the other hand, an air barrier (a properly detailed air-tight drywall ceiling, for example) in the absence of a vapor barrier can be effective, since it stops the flow of vapor-laden air. You can’t just install plastic in a ceiling and assume it is also an air barrier. For plastic to be an air barrier, it needs to be continuous, meaning all joints and penetrations must be taped or caulked.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru; Good stuff to remember. Thanks Joe!

This entry was posted in Ventilation, Pole Barn Homes, Pole Barn Heating, Post Frame Home, Barndominium, Shouse, Insulation, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Unvented Post Frame Attics

Unvented Post Frame Attics

Energy efficiency concerns have literally become a “hot” (pun intended) topic in new construction, and post frame construction methods are no exception to inclusion. Traditionally buildings have had insulation placed or blown into dead attic spaces, directly above a ceiling. Unvented attics have entered fray as an alternative.

 

To construct an unvented attic, air-impermeable insulation (think closed cell spray foam) will be applied in direct contact with steel roofing (or sheathing) underside and gable end walls so as to tie roof insulation into wall insulation below. Moving insulation boundary to the roof deck underside allows temperature and humidity conditions in the attic to be reasonably close to those of the conditioned building interior.  No attic floor vapor retarder or insulation should be installed with an unvented attic assembly.

Closed cell spray foam insulation products meet code requirements for use of an air-impermeable barrier applied to underside of roof. This prevents air infiltration and limits accumulation of airborne moisture in the attic. Using closed cell spray foam insulation applied to underside of roof deck eliminates a need for alternative methods of condensation control such as reflective radiant barriers or CondenStop (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/07/condenstop/).

In hurricane or wildfire prone areas wind-driven rain or embers cannot enter an unvented attic assembly, as there are no vents.

Spray Foam

Vented attic designs originated in cold climate areas. In these cold climates, attic ventilation is commonly used to remove warm, humid air from attic spaces. Air leakage from conditioned spaces below a ceiling greatly increased likelihood of moist air entering attics. Without adequate attic ventilation, the underside of the roof deck can have condensation form and interior heat can cause roof surface snowmelt leading to ice damming.

Use of venting to control moisture in cold climate attics comes with some inherent challenges. In high snowfall areas, snow accumulation and drifting can often block ridge vents. This limits venting and increases potential of damage due to ice damming, roof leaks and condensation.

Closed cell spray foam does not come without added upfront investment costs, however some of these can be mitigated in materials and/or labor savings.

Considering climate control of your new post frame building? If so, an unvented attic may be a viable solution worth investigating.

 

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My Pole Barn Needs Ventilation

My Pole Barn is a Sauna in Summer- and needs ventilation!

“Hey there Pole Barn Guru, got a question about ventilation.

Just bought a house with a pole barn on the property. I believe it’s only about a year old. 30 x 32.  It has no soffits or windows, only a standard garage door and walk-in door.

Metal siding and roof, and the underbelly of the roof has a vapor barrier. There are also two ceiling fans in here.

I don’t care that it’s cold inside the building in winter, but it’s like a sauna now in the summer.  I was thinking of an exhaust fan to pull out the heat, but I don’t know if that’s waste of money. How does one ventilate this thing without having to bulldoze it and start over?

Thanks.

Dezy”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Since you cannot increase the amount of venting in your soffits (as you have none), you’ll need help from power vent fans.

Attic vent fans can be hard-wired and equipped with a thermostat and/or humidity sensor so they automatically cut on at a preset moisture level or temperature. You could also install solar-powered attic vent fans, though it has been found most solar models aren’t powerful enough to be very effective.

To determine what size power vent fan(s) you need for your attic, you first need to know the size of your attic in square feet.

Attic Size

To determine the size of your attic, multiply the width by the length of the attic floor in feet. In your case 30′ wide x 32′ long = 960 square feet of attic space.

Vent Fan Size

Next, multiply the square feet of attic space by 0.7 to get the minimum number of cubic feet of air per minute the fan should be rated to move. 960 sft x 0.7 = 672 CFM minimum fan rating.

Add an additional 20% (CFM x 1.20) if you have a steep roof, and 15% (CFM x 1.15) for a dark roof. Attic vent fans are commonly rated from 800 to 1,600 CFM, making one fan suitable.

Vent Fan Location

Install gable mounted fans on the gable vent at end of the building facing away from the prevailing winds.

Intake Air Vents

It’s also important to have plenty of soffit or gable vents for the fan to draw air into the attic. To find out if you have enough vent space, divide the cubic feet of air per minute the fan(s) is rated for by 300 to come up with the minimum number of square feet of intake vent space needed for that size fan. 672 CFM ÷ 300 = 2.24 sq. ft. intake vent area

If you prefer the answer in square inches rather than square feet, multiply the answer by 144 and round to the nearest inch (2.24 x 144 = 322.56 sq. in. vent area).

 

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Pole Barn Insulation, Part II

Continued from yesterday’s blog:

(1) Storage – if you ever believe anyone might ever in the future desire to climate control then provision should be made for making it easiest to make future upgrades.

At the very least a reflective radiant barrier (single cell rather than wasting the money for the extra approximately 0.5 R from double bubble), an Integral Condensation Control (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/03/integral-condensation-control/) or sheathing with 30# felt should be placed between the roof framing and roof steel to minimize condensation.

If a concrete floor is poured (in ANY use building), it should be over a well sealed vapor barrier.

For now we will assume this building is totally cold storage. If it might ever (even in your wildest dreams) be heated and/or cooled include the following in your initial design: Walls should have a Weather Resistant Barrier (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/01/determining-the-most-effective-building-weather-resistant-barrier-part-1/) between the framing and the siding. Taking walls one step further would be ‘commercial’ bookshelf wall girts (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/).

In the roof – have the trusses designed to support a ceiling load ideally of 10 pounds per square foot (read about ceiling loaded trusses here: (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/03/ceiling-loaded-trusses/). Trusses should also be designed with raised heels to provide full depth of future attic insulation above the walls (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/07/raised-heel-trusses/).

Make provision for attic ventilation, by having an air intake along the sidewall using enclosed ventilated soffits and exhaust with a vented ridge.

Any overhead doors should be ordered insulated – just a good choice in general as, besides offering a minimal thermal resistance, they are stiffer against the wind.

(2) Equine only use: Same as #1 with an emphasis upon the ventilation aspect.

(3) Workshop/garage and (4) Garage/mancave/house are going to be the same – other than whatever the client is willing to invest in R value, being the major difference.

Adding onto #1 for the walls the low end would be unfaced batt insulation with a 6ml visqueen vapor barrier on the interior. Other options (in more or less ascending price and R values) would be Mineral wool insulation as it is not affected by moisture (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/03/roxul-insulation/),  BIBs (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/bibs/), closed cell spray foam in combination with batts and just the closed cell spray foam (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/07/advantages-spray-foam-over-batt-insulation/).

For added R value and a complete thermal break, add rigid closed cell foam boards to the inside of the wall.

Once a ceiling has been installed, blow in attic insulation.

For (4) a Frost-Protected Shallow Foundation (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/11/frost-protected-shallow-foundations/) with sand on the inside rather than a thickened slab is an excellent and affordable design solution.

For insulation solutions which follow the roof line, the best bet is going to be the use of closed cell spray foam, as it solves the potential condensation on the underside of the roofing and does not require ventilation above.

In most cases, the steel trusses fabricated for post frame buildings are either not designed by a registered engineer, are not fabricated by certified welders or both – so it makes it difficult for me to recommend them as part of a design solution.

With scissor trusses, they can be treated the same as a flat ceiling would be, provided the bottom chord slope is not so great as to cause blown in insulation to drift downhill.

 

This entry was posted in Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Insulating an Attic Bonus Room

Attic bonus rooms seem to be the rage – Hansen Pole Buildings does more than a few of these and the trend seems to be increasing in popularity. With this comes how to properly insulate an attic bonus room.

There are more than a few challenges when it comes to utilization of attic space for a bonus room. Highest amongst them are the space is neither free nor inexpensive. The lack of accessibility becomes another factor. At our home outside of Spokane, Washington, my lovely bride and I have our office in a bonus room above our garage. Now a paraplegic, due to her motorcycle accident in 2015, my wife will probably never be able to access our office there again. Our offices have moved to a handicapped accessible space in our home, and the attic space now becomes a catch all for overflow of what I endearingly call “stuff”.

With all of this said, there are still going to be clients looking at attic bonus rooms as a design solution. In an earlier article, I had written about how to insulate the knee walls of bonus rooms: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/09/bonus-room-3/.

There are other attic bonus room areas which need to have attention paid to them, however.

Enter closed cell spray foam (read more about spray foam insulation here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/07/advantages-spray-foam-over-batt-insulation/).

There are two perfect areas of the attic bonus room which are ideal for closed cell spray foam as a solution.

The most important of these is any sloped area which has become part of the bonus room. As heat rises, it is most likely to escape through the narrow areas of the slope, or the edges of the area above the “cross tie” (the flat ceiling at the center of the bonus room). At R-7 per inch, a 2×6 truss top chord can be filled to R-38.5 with closed cell spray foam, as opposed to R-19 with fiberglass batts!

Bonus room floors can also be cold. Often attic bonus rooms (such as my own) are above unheated garage or storage space. By utilizing spray foam directly to the underside of the floor sheathing, cold floors can be minimized.

In any case, be sure to provide adequate ventilation in any enclosed attic spaces. These would include the area above the cross tie and the spaces outside of the knee walls.

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Will My Trusses Hold Added Ceiling Dead Load?

Understanding the Needs of Load Bearing Finish

I sadly hear this story all too often. A brand new post frame building which quite possibly will not meet the load needs of the owner due to lack of due diligence upon the part of whomever sold the building. Here is the story and my response:

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a newly constructed 30 x 40 pole barn, truss spacing 8′ o.c., 2×6. 5 PSF. I am wondering if I can cap the ceiling and insulate without over loading the bottom chord? Recommended material used for this? In laymen’s term how do I determine how much dead weight can be applied to bottom chord? At the time of construction I did not understand the load bearing needs of interior finish. Thank you – JUSTIN in MONROE

Dear Justin: Yours is one of the two most frequent issues following completion of a new post frame building, the other being insulating. Most post frame builders and building suppliers are afraid to have this discussion with potential new building owners – for fear the increase in price will scare them off! In my humble opinion, part of delivering “The Ultimate Post Frame Building Experience” is to discuss important issues such as this with clients BEFORE the building design process gets too far down the line. Shame on whomever you invested hard earned dollars with for not having had this discussion with you.

You should have been furnished with engineer sealed truss drawings for your building. If you were not, call whomever you purchased the building from, and request them. On the truss drawing will be a section which outlines all of the live and dead loads which the trusses are designed to support. If the number next to BCDL (Bottom Chord Dead Load) is less than five psf (pounds per square foot) then the trusses and the building are not designed to support a ceiling.

Take heart, if the design BCDL happens to be less than five, you can contact the truss manufacturer and for a nominal fee they can usually (especially with smaller truss spans like yours) get an engineered repair (or fix) to upgrade the trusses to support the load of the ceiling. This is never as inexpensive as having it done right to start with.

In order to install a ceiling in your building, you will need to ventilate the dead attic space you will be creating. More reading on ventilation is available here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/02/pole-building-ventilation/

Once past the truss loading and ventilation stages, the adequacy of the footings for the building columns to handle the extra load could pose a challenge – IF your new building was not designed to support a ceiling load to begin with. You should consult with the engineer of record who sealed the plans for your building, to verify the ability of the footing to properly transfer the loads from your building to the supporting soils. If you are unable to contact him or her, a competent engineer should be contacted to confirm what you have works, or to design a repair if not. Don’t overlook this step, or assume what you have will handle the load – we all know what assuming ends up causing – nothing but grief and having a column settle due to the added weight is not a problem you want to have to solve.

Ceiling joists will need to be installed between the bottom chord of the trusses. To support 5/8″ gypsum drywall, #2 (not standard & better) grade 2×4 or 2×6 can be placed 24 inches on center supported at each end with 2×4 joist hangers.

Planning a new post frame building? If you feel you or anyone after you who uses your new building will ever have the desire to install a ceiling (trust me – it happens a lot), at the very least have the trusses designed to support a ceiling load, as well as make provisions for adequate ventilation. The headache you solve, may very well be your own!

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Trusses, Building Interior, Professional Engineer and tagged , , on by .

Dear Guru: Why Vapor Barrier?

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I constructed a pole building with the help of Iowa based Amish group. They put up the main structure including metal roof. Due to city codes, I enclosed the 40x60x12 structure using 1/2 osb, house wrap and then vinyl siding. I want to use paper faced 4x8x4″ Styrofoam sheets on the walls, and roll insulation for the ceiling. My question is, do I use a vapor barrier on the walls after putting in the Styrofoam or none at all? And for the ceiling I would assume I would attach a vapor barrier to the bottom side of the trusses and lay the R-25 unfaced insulation on top of that. I have ridge vent and soffit vents. Thanks for your help! Curt in Center Point, IA DEAR CURT: For a properly performing system, your building should have a vapor barrier on the inside of all walls. The paper facing on the Styrofoam™ panels should be a vapor barrier. In order to perform properly, you need to make sure all edges and joints are tightly sealed, to prevent moisture from entering the wall cavity.

A vapor barrier should NOT be placed across the bottom of the roof trusses. If your building has steel roofing, I am hoping some sort of thermal break (like a reflective radiant barrier or similar) has been installed between the roof purlins and the roof steel, otherwise you are in for a plethora of problems. Warm moist air from your building needs to be able to pass through the ceiling and into the non-conditioned dead attic space, where it can be properly vented out of the ridge vent. You also should consider a greater R value in the attic. According to the North American Insulation Manufacturers Association https://www.naima.org/insulation-knowledge-base/residential-home-insulation/how-much-insulation-should-be-installed.html a minimum of R-38 should be installed in Iowa.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

Dear Pole Barn Guru: We had hail damage to a post frame office building last Summer. Several months prior to the storm we had the side walls spray foam insulated (closed cell) and then framed and dry-walled. We have finally settled up with the insurance company and are ready to “re-skin” the building. The spray foam insulation was a significant expense and if we take off the metal siding the insulation will come off too. Here is my question: Can we simply install another layer of 29 gauge metal siding over the existing siding? Or can we fur out and install a different type of siding? Your input would be greatly appreciated!   KEN in Ft. Collins, CO

DEAR KEN: Although hail damage to steel siding and roofing is unusual, you have now found the downside to spray foam insulation applied to the inside face of it. If you place furring strips on the outside of the existing siding, you are most likely going to end up with the siding on the eave sides extending past the typical steel roof overhangs provided with most pole buildings. Plus, anything other than pre-painted steel siding is likely to come along with a lifetime of having to maintain it. In all probability, your best solution may very well be to install siding of the exact same profile over the existing steel. Screws will need to removed from each panel as you work your way down the wall, and replaced with screws of a larger diameter, as well as longer – in order to properly hold both layers of siding in place. With some patience, the results should turn out satisfactory

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Dear Pole Barn Guru: What is the Proper Wind Shear Bracing?

New!  The Pole Barn Guru’s mailbox is overflowing with questions.  Due to high demand, he is answering questions on Saturdays as well as Mondays.

Welcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday or Saturday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

Dear Pole Barn Guru: What is the proper wind sheer bracing for a 60’W x 80’L by 20’H monitor pole barn with a 20′ center aisle and a second story? The raised center portion has 20 foot walls, then another 6 feet to the center at the ridge.

The 2 sheds on either side are 10′ at the edge and intersect the center at about 15′. The entire structure is made of poles on 20′ centers, Lvl beams and ladder trusses for floor and trussed roofs. It is unprotected from the wind. We are in central Texas. TEETERING IN TEXAS

DEAR TEETERING: This is why it is such an excellent idea to order complete pole building packages from a company who can run all of these calculations accurately in advance. Then buildings are designed to resist the proper loads, including wind shear, without having to search for solutions in the middle of the game.

Provided all of the columns are adequately sized and embedded …..

Steel roofing should be 3′ width, minimum 29 gauge, with high ribs every 9″, attached to 2x purlins on edge spaced no more than 28″ o.c. Roofing should attach to purlins with #12 x 1-1/2″ diaphragm screws at 9″ o.c. at each purlin. At eave and top edges of panels place screws on each side of every high rib.

Provided you attach the endwall steel the same as the roof steel, you should be able to have up to 19 lineal feet of openings on each endwall without further reinforcement.

All of this should be reviewed by a Registered Design Professional (RDP – engineer or architect) for structural adequacy.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU:  Is it possible to get a quote to have it assembled? MINDFUL IN MORRIS

DEAR MORRIS: We are not contractors, however fair market value for labor is typically about 50% of materials costs.

I recommend placing an ad on Craigslist under “labor gigs” such as:

Contractor needed to assemble pole building kit package on my clear level site in Morris County. 24’x40’x14′ includes 12″ overhangs, a 12’x12′ overhead door, entry door and wainscot. I will provide all materials except for nail gun nails. Willing to pay $4000-5000 depending upon experience and references.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a metal building constructed of 2×4 square tubing and 4×4 metal posts. 3″ × 1.5″ c purlin is welded with the c side down spanning across my 2×4 square tubing roof beams. I have a metal roof screwed to the c purlin. The building wraps around an existing building and looks like an L from a top view and has a 2 on 12 shed roof with a hip. The building is “stand alone” and attached to the other structure only with a side wall transition piece. The metal roof slides under the eve of the other structure with the side wall transition on top. I also used the vented enclosure under the sidewall transition for ventilation. I also have a ridge vent at the hip with the vented enclosure under the hip cap. I have a 12″ soffit around the outside perimeter of the metal structure with soffit vents every 5 ft. I have a 4 ft cedar picket half wall around the outside perimeter with the remaining height of the wall in screens….basically a screened in party room but I plan on switching out the screens for heavy plastic sheeting in the winter. I have a hot tub inside and I want to insulate the roof and install a ceiling. 1st question: do I have to install a vapor barrier IF I am using 3/8 marine plywood for the ceiling and the attic side of the sheathing is covered in heavy vinyl….sheathing was once election signs. I am attaching the ceiling directly to the bottom of the 2×4 roof beams following the slope of the 2 on 12 pitch.

2nd question…..because I only have the 4″ depth of the 2×4 sq tubing + 1.5″ depth of the c purlin = 5.5″ total for insulation AND vent space, how would you insulate? Spray foam is too expensive for me. I want to reduce the radiant heat in the summer and I am concerned with the humidity from the hot tub especially in the winter. Any help would be greatly appreciated. TOASTY IN TEXAS

DEAR TOASTY: My guess is you are going to be creating an inadequately ventilated dead attic space. You need to have 1/150th of the “foot print” of your space, as ventilation, equally divided between the eaves and the ridge. In your case, you have no ability to adequately vent the high side of your roof, as it abuts another building.

Even though the best solution might well be to tear everything down and construct a new building, chances are you would not look favorably financially upon it as the end all.

Probably your best bet is to install an A1V reflective radiant barrier beneath the roof purlins (https://www.buyreflectiveinsulation.com) with the reflective side up. Make sure every seam is tightly sealed. This should help reduce the thermal gain in the summer. If you are going to create a dead attic space between a ceiling and the reflective radiant barrier – powered attic vents in each end could be a good investment.

As for humidity from your hot tub, install air inlet vents near the floor and exhaust vents near the ceiling line. You may also need to have one or more powered vents in the walls of this area.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , on by .
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