Tag Archives: blown in fiberglass

A Barndominium Challenge

A Barndominium HVAC Challenge

My now dear friend (thanks to his barndominium) LONNIE in COLORADO SPRINGS writes:

“Hi Mike, I’m still around and still working on the house and making some slow but constant progress so I thank you all for your help and support. I have run into an issue (it’s not related to my Hansen building but I’m hoping you can offer advice anyway).. I ran into a problem getting a HVAC contractor to install my HVAC system. Not too many companies are willing to work with a owner/builder and HVAC install is way out of my wheelhouse. I was able to find a contractor that was willing to do the install but they were pretty much unwilling to do anything different than their “normal” installation (i.e. supply and return ducts in the attic). I was really wanting to do at least return air in my conditioned crawl space but they wouldn’t even consider doing that. So, in order to make progress on the project, I okayed the installation. All the building guru’s say that HVAC duct should not be placed in an unconditioned attic due to leakage and inefficiency so I’m trying to figure out how to mitigate duct losses. There are a couple of ways that I’ve thought of but I’d like your thoughts.

Options:

1: As described in some articles I’ve read and encapsulate all the ductwork with spray foam then bury all the ducts in my blown in insulation

2: Just leave the ducts as is and just bury the ducts as deep as I can afford with insulation3: I’ve thought of covering all the ducts with 6 mil plastic down to the ceiling drywall.. i.e. kind of enclose the ducts in a bubble that is attached to the ceiling, then bury it all in insulation. Covering the ducts in plastic seems like it would basically move the ducts to the conditioned space. Anyway, thank you for all your input and all the help you guys have been to me.

Thanks Lonnie”

Lonnie ~

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

You are most certainly among my favorite all time clients, it has been such a pleasure working with you. While I am excited for you to be moving in, I have to admit it will be sad to not hear from you once all is completed. Since you started, one of our sons has moved to Colorado Springs, so if we get down to visit, I will drop you a message and maybe come by to see your beautiful home for real.


Your HVAC experience is why our Construction Industry in general is so far behind the curve of efficient building design – very frustrating. I would look to make those ducts as efficient as possible – I’d start with two inches of closed cell spray foam on sides and top, then bury it with enough blown in insulation to achieve an R value equal to the balance of your attic space. Closed cell spray foam will seal up any leaks in your duct work (trust me, there will be some). Return air through your crawl space would have been a no-brainer, in my humble opinion. I worked with stick frame builders nearly four decades ago who insulated their crawl space perimeters and then used those crawl spaces as one huge air return. Then, it was less expensive than running ducts.

Blown-In Fiberglass Attic Insulation

Blown-In Fiberglass Attic Insulation

In Climate Zones 3 and higher blown-in fiberglass attic insulation is extremely popular due to lower investment cost and high performance.

Looking for a best solution for your barndominium or post frame attic? It is inevitable an insulation contractor will warn you away from blown-in fiberglass due to a dated study proving fiberglass insulation loses up to half its R-value due to internal convection. It is important to understand this study’s results.

Titled Thermal Performance of Fiberglass and Cellulose Attic Insulations, this paper describes research done by Kenneth E. Wilkes and Phillip W Childs at Oak Ridge National Laboratory 30 years ago.

Wilkes and Childs set up an attic test module simulating temperature differences across an insulated attic floor.  Basically they put a whole roof and attic assembly into big chamber and measured R-values of three insulation types:

  • Loose-fill fiberglass
  • Fiberglass batts
  • Loose-fill cellulose


They kept temperature below the ceiling drywall at 70° F and varied the exterior temperature from 45° F down to -18° F.   Here’s what they found:

  • Fiberglass batts and loose-fill cellulose performed as expected at a whole range of temperature differences. 
  • Loose-fill fiberglass showed a significant reduction in R-value as the attic got colder and the temperature difference got larger. 

Loose-fill fiberglass lost 35% to 50% of its resistance to heat flow at temperature differences of 70° F to 76° F.  This loss of R-value started at a temperature difference of about 32° F.  With temperature below ceiling drywall held at 70° F, R-value started dropping when attic temperature was reduced to 38° F and had lost 35-50% when attic temperature got to 0° F and below.

In looking at this data, researchers saw a pattern leading them to suspect convection within insulation as the culprit.  They did some calculations and further experimentation and concluded this was indeed what was occurring.  Further experimentation they did was to put a covering layer over the loose-fill fiberglass top.  They tried both a polyethylene film and fiberglass blanket combination and (2) R-19 fiberglass batts.  Both eliminated convection and reduction in R-value.

If our story ended here, the lesson learned would be to avoid loose-fill fiberglass for attic insulation or use it with a covering layer.  But there is a Paul Harvey….

If you read this paper and think about what they did and what they found, a couple questions might occur to you.

Why would loose-fill fiberglass and fiberglass batts behave differently in an attic?  They’re made with the same material and were of similar density.

Is fiberglass made and installed now the same as it was back 30 years ago when they did this research?

This Oak Ridge paper doesn’t say what brand of loose-fill fiberglass insulation they used, but at least two fiberglass insulation manufacturers have written technical bulletins about their product and shown data about measured R-values under conditions similar to those studied. 

Density of fibrous insulation materials is certainly an important factor.  But, fiberglass batts and loose-fill insulation used were of similar density.  Batts were 0.46 to 0.48 pounds per cubic foot (pcf) and loose-fill ranged from 0.40 to 0.56 pcf.  So density doesn’t explain any discrepancy.

What does explain it, according to Owens Corning and Johns Manville, is chunk size.  Fiberglass batt or blanket insulation is one large chunk with a lot of glass fibers bonded together.  Thirty years ago, Owens Corning loose-fill fiberglass was made by taking their fiberglass blanket insulation and cutting it into little cubes. Johns Manville doesn’t say how they were making loose-fill fiberglass then, but they do say they used these research results to establish design specifications for all of Johns Manville’s loose-fill fiberglass attic insulations to improve winter thermal performance.  This led Johns Manville to maintain an appropriate nodule or tuft size, decreasing installed insulation air permeability. 

 

As explained in Owens Corning’s bulletin, “The bonded cubes did not nest well, leaving voids of relatively large air spaces and allowing R-value depleting convection to occur.”  This is why older loose-fill insulation had a problem with convective loops.  And it’s why modern loose-fill fiberglass product doesn’t.  They now use smaller chunks, nesting well together.

In summary, researchers at Oak Ridge National Lab found loose-fill fiberglass insulation 30 years ago had a problem.  As the attic temperature dropped, so did R-value.  It happened only with loose-fill fiberglass insulation they tested, though.  As a result, fiberglass insulation manufacturers took a good look at their product and found by using unbonded material in smaller chunks, this problem went away.

Sometimes people (usually those who sell other types of insulation) will refer to this Oak Ridge study as proof fiberglass doesn’t work at all, ever, in any circumstances.  This has always been an exaggeration because a flaw was found only in loose-fill fiberglass used in horizontal installations on an attic floor.

Manufacturers say they have eliminated this problem altogether by improving their product and their research proves they’ve gotten rid of this problem.  A lot of people know about this Oak Ridge study from something they heard from someone who heard it from someone else who heard it from their boss who talked to someone who learned about this at a conference in 1994 (Hmmm – sounds like social media).

Is your new barndominium in Climate Zones three and greater and have a dead attic space? If so, then loose-fill fiberglass insulation is going to deliver results you can depend upon.

How to Properly Insulate between Roof Purlins

How to Properly Insulate Between Roof Purlins

Efficient climate control is becoming the buzz term for post frame construction. A challenge occurs when clients look to insulate between their roof purlins.

Reader JOHN in COVINGTON writes:

“I am building an all wood pole building. The purlins are 2x8s. I want to insulate the walls and up at the purlins to keep as much usable space as possible with an insulated building. How do I insulate and properly vent between the insulation and the underside of the plywood roof underlayment. If I use R19 it is 6 inches so there would be 2 inches of space between the insulation and the wood. Do I use something like a house bird block at each end of the building for each purlin space?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru Writes:

The best solution lies in creating an unvented roof

It is quite possible to design an unvented insulated roof assembly which performs well, as long as you get the details right. In recent years, most building codes have begun to allow the construction of unvented insulated sloped roof assemblies. Many such roofs have failed over the years, however, so don’t get creative. Follow the rules.

For sake of brevity, I will limit this discussion to only as it pertains to post frame buildings with widely spaced trusses and purlins on edge.

First of all, you can’t use air-permeable insulation (for example, fiberglass batts, mineral wool batts, dense-packed cellulose, or blown-in fiberglass) to insulate an unvented roof assembly unless the roof assembly also includes a layer of air-impermeable insulation (spray polyurethane foam) directly below the roof steel or sheathing.

The 2009 IRC (International Residential Code) defines air-impermeable insulation as “an insulation having an air permeance equal to or less than 0.02 L/s-m² at 75 Pa pressure differential tested according to ASTM E 2178 or E 283.” Although spray foam insulation and rigid foam insulation meet this standard, fiberglass batts and dense-packed cellulose do not.

If you want to use just one type of insulation in unvented bays, you are limited to spray polyurethane foam. Another possibility, of course, is to build your roof with structural insulated panels (SIPs), which in most cases is cost prohibitive.

The code restrictions on the use of air-permeable insulation between purlins were developed to prevent the purlins or roof sheathing from rotting. When fiberglass batts are installed in unvented bays, the batts allow moist indoor air to reach the cold steel roofing or sheathing. That leads to condensation or moisture accumulation, followed eventually by rot. Since spray foam prevents air movement, it almost eliminates this problem.

It’s important to note, however, recent research suggests closed-cell spray foam is much less risky than open-cell spray foam in this location.

To summarize, there are really two practical ways to build an unvented roof assembly:

Install closed-cell spray foam against the underside of the steel roofing or roof sheathing, and no other type of insulation. Be sure the thickness of the spray foam is adequate to meet minimum code requirements. Remember open-cell spray foam is risky in all climate zones, and if open-cell spray foam is installed in this location in a cold climate, the underside of the cured foam must be covered with gypsum drywall which has been painted with vapor-retarder paint. Vapor-retarder paint is ineffective if it is sprayed directly on the cured foam.

Install a layer of closed-cell spray foam against the underside of the steel roofing or roof sheathing, and fill the rest of the purlin cavity with an air-permeable insulation. This type of assembly is designed to dry to the interior, so the assembly should never include an interior polyethylene vapor barrier.