Tag Archives: column size

Ceiling Liner, Double trusses, and a Second floor

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about what best installed between ceiling liner and trusses and insulation recommendations in a new shop, advice on sidewall column size for use with double trusses, and the structural stability of a pole barn second floor.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Just built a 40x60x11 pole barn on the eastern shore of MD. Approx. 20×40 will be garage workshop, the rest will have a kitchen and bathroom etc. going to use liner panel for ceiling, what do I, if anything needs to use between the liner and the trusses? Insulation recommendation? Product recommendations are appreciated! Thank you, LYNN in SHARPTOWN

DEAR LINN: There is not a Code requirement for a barrier between trusses and liner panels in your climate zone. If you are considering blowing in cellulose, chemicals in cellulose can react with steel panels to cause premature deterioration, so a barrier should then be used. My first choice would be blown granulated rockwool, second would be fiberglass. Make sure to have adequate eave and ridge ventilation, in correct proportions.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Went reading your blog on double truss system, if wanting to erect a pole barn 30×78. Would using 4×6 be ok going 12 ft high post spaced every 8 foot other then 2 16 openings. BRIAN in PADUCAH

nailing trussesDEAR BRIAN: Thank you for being a reader of my articles. Even with a very low design wind speed, low risk occupancy and a well-protected site, it is unlikely 4×6 columns would be adequate to properly carry design loads, given your eave height. As you are possibly considering utilization of ganged (double) trusses, and will need larger columns anyhow, you may want to consider increasing column spacing to 12 feet on center. Fewer holes to dig, fewer columns to set and your budget will be much happier. In any case, I would encourage you to invest in a fully engineered building – any possible savings you might believe you would attain without engineering, will be quickly eaten up when you have a failure.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’m wondering if this would be structurally sound with a top floor on it? It would be meant as a home/business. I work in the commercial construction industry I guess the other question is do you have any of these in New Hampshire? Please let me know what you think and Thank you. JOE in HUDSON

DEAR JOE: My own post-frame building has a 48′ x 60′ main center section. Downstairs has a clearspan floor (yes, spanning 48 feet), with a 16 foot high ceiling. Upstairs is a full living area, again with 16 foot high ceilings. A portion of this upper level also has a small mezzanine. Overall building height at peak of roof is 44 feet. So, in answer to your question – fully engineered post-frame construction lends itself very well to multiple stories (up to three stories and 40′ tall sidewalls, or four stories and 50′ tall sidewalls with fire suppression sprinklers). We have provided over 100 of our buildings to clients in New England states, including a dozen or so in New Hampshire.

 

Attic Space, Cost Effective Size, and Column Sizing

This week the Pole barn Guru answers reader questions regarding a 6ft attic space over a 30×44 pole barn, the most “cost effective” method to build, and the point at which a post increased from a 6×6 to a 6×8.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: We want a decent-height (a bit over 6ft) attic space in our 30×44 pole barn (on a concrete slab foundation), can we use steel trusses or would wood trusses be a better option for this? The ground floor ceiling height is 8ft. Thnx for the help. RON in TONEY

DEAR RON: Lots of possible design solutions available. To begin with, I would recommend wood trusses – should you ever want to finish a ceiling, or if you want to have a product fabricated under strict quality control standards, then wood trusses are your best choice. On to options…. #1 My favorite. Make your building tall enough to have a full second floor. This will give you greatest usable space and best resale value. By using prefabricated wood floor trusses, you can still have a clearspan floor (no posts below) and it provides an unencumbered space below without columns to dodge. Yes, it will be a greater investment, but one you will probably never regret. #2 Prefab wood ‘bonus room’ trusses. With a steep enough slope (roughly 8/12) you can end up with an eight foot ceiling height at center and a room roughly 10-12 feet in width. For amount of space being gained, this is a fairly costly design solution. #3 Increase sidewall height and use scissor trusses to allow for a central mezzanine supported by columns. While likely to be your least expensive design solution, you will be faced with columns below (unless opting to again add in floor trusses.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What is the most cost efficient size to build (Can I save money by buying a specific width/ length/ height?) What are the pros and cons of choosing metal frame or post frame? Is it still true that you can add square footage more affordably by building up (adding a second floor)? Can you put a basement under a Barn House? ANNIE in FORT LUPTON

DEAR ANNIE: As you get closest to square, your costs per square foot will decrease slightly. This is due to having less exterior wall surface, although it does not necessarily lend itself best to layout of rooms. For post frame construction, your most efficient use of materials typically comes from multiples of 12 feet in width and length. Work from inside out – do not try to fit your wants and needs within a pre-ordained box just because someone said using a “standard” size might be cheaper. Differences in dimensions from “standard” are pennies per square foot, not dollars. Post frame will always be your most cost effective structural design solution: https://hansenpolebuildings.com/2022/01/why-your-new-barndominium-should-be-post-frame/ Two story is not necessarily your least expensive design solution: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/02/barndominium-one-story-or-two/ And yes, fully engineered post frame buildings can include a full, partial or walk-out basement: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/02/barndominium-on-a-daylight-basement/

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: At what point do the post size change from 6×6 to 8×8, thanks. JEFF in SOUTH HAVEN

Roof Only Riding ArenaDEAR JEFF: If erecting a roof only “pavilion” style post frame building, column dimensions are often dictated by L/d ratio as there is no wind load on totally open sidewalls. “L” is unsupported length of column (grade or top of concrete slab to bottom of truss connection), divided by least dimension of column. Playing a part in this is a factor known as Ke. Ke is determined by fixity of columns. On a roof only structure, columns act as cantilevers (think of a diving board), so Ke = 2.1. Looking at your 5-1/2″ square 6×6, 5.5″ x 50 / 2.1 = 130.95″ (or just under 10’11”). This means at an unsupported length of 11 feet, a 6×6 would fail. Obviously, truss span, spacing, and loads from dead, wind and any snow must be properly factored into equations to be verified by your building’s engineer. Adding an eave sidewall (or sidewalls) with open endwalls will cause bending forces to fail most 6×6 columns at lesser heights.

Formula for Calculating Wall Girts

An Excel Formula for Calculating Wall Girts, Post Size and Hole Depth
John Minor and I have been friends for nearly 30 years – since his then father-in-law (and my business partner at the time) convinced me John could sell post frame buildings. Well Rod was correct, John could sell buildings – not only for me (twice), but also for some of the better known names in the post frame industry – Morton, Stockade, Cleary and FBi just to name a few.
John is also a cutting edge innovator and has gone from selling post frame buildings, to manufacturing and providing components to the post frame industry. Current he owns and operates Central Perma-column (https://www.heartlandpermacolumn.com/). John is smarter than the average bear and he has the thirst for knowledge which few non-RDPs (Registered Design Professionals – architects or engineers) in the post frame industry do.
December 13, I received this text message on my phone: “I need your help with something”. Although I did not recognize the number it came from, it turned out to be John.
The conversation went on like this – John, “No worries. I’m trying to find an Excel formula for calculating wall girts, post size and hole depth.”
Me, “You would have to write one and they will be very complex due to the tremendous number of variables involved. I’ve thought about having a Wall Girt calculator on our website for Building Officials to use and the reality is, it is a huge undertaking. For it alone, requires all of the building dimensions including roof slope, is building enclosed or partially enclosed? Which means one has to know if doors are wind rated, and where they are placed. Also makes a difference as to where girts are located on building as wind forces are greater at corners. If girts are barn style on outside of columns, do they span a single bay or multiple bays? Then one has to account for lumber species differences as well as visual vs. machine grading.

Best bet would be to layout all of the parameters and put it out for bid on Upwork. Should specify which versions of Code and NDS you want to cover as well as it must conform to the NFBA design manual. For columns, you are now talking 25-35 pages of calcs.
Fun, eh?”
John, “Damn!”
Those “simple” pole barns one drives by every day are in reality highly complex engineered structures (when properly designed). A full set of calculations for a small two car garage can generate nearly 200 pages of single spaced calculations to prove the adequacy of all structural members and connections, from the footings to the last fastener.
Don’t leave your new post frame building to chance – insist upon having only a building which has been designed specifically for you by a Registered Design Professional, on your site, with your dimensions and your doors!

Post Size? Convert to OHD? & Cleaning Dirty Vinyl

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you have to use the same size posts on the end walls even if it is non load bearing? so if I use 6×6 posts that hold the trusses can I use smaller lumber on the non load bearing ends?
Thank you. CAMERON in BOISE

DEAR CAMERON: This is why it is essential to invest in a post frame building kit package which includes engineering which is specific to your building. The engineer will specify the minimum size requirements so you do not have to get into guesswork. Most pressure preservative treated timbers in your part of the country are Hem-Fir, which has a very low value in bending once it has been incised. Chances are very small of a 6×6 working to support the interior trusses, unless you have a very short eave height and a protected site.

In direct answer to your question – often the endwall columns can be smaller dimension. This article explains some of the reason why: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/lumber-bending/.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: We have a pole building that had a 12′ X 12′ slider door that was recently damaged and needs replaced. Can you point me in the direction I need to go to get a replacement. We wanted to replace it with an overhead door but do not have sufficient clearance for our motorhome. JOYCE in FRANKLIN

Figure 27-5

DEAR JOYCE: Replacing a sliding door with an overhead door is no simple task as the opening sizes are completely different. If this is the direction you truly want to pursue, you should start by contracting with a competent local engineer who can evaluate what you have and determine how to best make the structural changes necessary to fit the overhead door into your soon to be remodeled building. Expect this to be an expensive undertaking, even if you are doing the work yourself.

If you decide to just replace the sliding door, visit the ProDesk at your local The Home Depot®, as they should be able to assist you.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I recently purchased a pole building with vinyl insulation that is really dirty. Is there any way to clean the insulation? Can I spray paint it? I’m afraid to get it wet. Let me know your thoughts asap. Thanks LUCILLE in McHENRY

Reflective InsulationDEAR LUCILLE: You are finding one of the reason I personally do not recommend the use of vinyl faced metal building insulation. As long as the insulation has not gotten brittle and cracked, you can wash it with any sort of cleaner which does not react negatively with vinyl. Most folks who get to this point use dishwashing detergent, warm water and a sponge. Take care to not rip the vinyl facing. Any cracks or tears in the facing need to be repaired with a good vinyl repair tape (white duct tape works). I would not suggest power washing, as the force of the high pressure water will probably rip the facing, leaving you with an even bigger mess. Spray painting would not be an option unless the facing has been cleaned, at which point there would be no reason to paint it.