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Will ICC Adopt a Pole-frame Appendix?

Will ICC Adopt a Pole-frame Appendix?

Reader MATT in PIERRE writes: “Is there any possibility that the ICC will adopt an appendix related to pole-frame buildings. We require engineering in our local jurisdiction at this time and it would be much simpler for customers who want to build a pole-barn if there was a way to construct these buildings without engineering. They do have an appendix for straw bale houses, of which I have seen exactly 0. Thank you!”

 

Kudos to your jurisdiction to require site specific, engineer sealed plans for pole (post) frame buildings. In my humble opinion, all post frame buildings should be engineered. This protects current and future building owners, building occupants and relieves building departments from potential liability issues. Engineering is actually an affordable investment, not an expense, and a good engineer will save their clients more from efficient use of materials, than what they were paid.

In a direct answer to your question – it would be highly unlikely, as our industry (unlike stick frame) is highly non-standardized and how buildings are built is as different as are those who construct them. There are also huge regional differences in construction techniques.

Columns can be embedded or mounted using ICC-ESR approved brackets to foundation walls, thickened edge slabs or piers. Common spacing of columns can range from every four feet to as great as 16 foot centers. Columns themselves can be round, solid sawn timbers, laminated (either by nails or actual glulams). Trusses can be built on site or prefabricated, attached to headers between columns (truss carriers) or aligned directly with columns and spaced from two to 16 feet or more on center.

Besides lack of standardization, post frame construction far exceeds building dimensional limitations as outlined in current model building codes (especially International Residential Code).

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Building Department, Barndominium, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Footings, Budget, Professional Engineer, Columns, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , on by .

San Diego County, Wind Speeds, and Wet Set Column Brackets

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about whether or not Hansen has sold a building in San Diego County, CA, a building with a design wind speed of 150mph, and a recommendation for use of PermaColumn wet set brackets.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Have you sold pole barns in  San Diego County, CA? KEN in RAMONA

DEAR KEN: It is a challenge to find any county in America without a Hansen Pole Building (or several) in it. We have provided close to two hundred fully engineered post frame buildings to our clients in California – including in San Diego County.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, Our codes recently changed to 150 mph plus for wind load and I want to build a post frame home. Do you have engineering to satisfy that for any pole barn kit/trusses/etc that you may offer for sale? I’ve attached a file and have the spacing showing in red squares as 10 ft-10 ft-8 ft-10ft-10ft. Thanks. JEFF in MARIANN

DEAR JEFF: Thank you for your interest in a new Hansen Pole Building. We are able to engineer for design wind speeds in excess of 200 mph. One of our Building Designers will be reaching out to you shortly, or call 1.866.200.9657 for immediate assistance.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello Mr. Mike. I have attached our plans and had a couple questions. What do you think about perma column brackets for this type of build? What do you think about our plans in general? Any issues? We are building in south Georgia. Thank you so much. JASON & ERIN in THOMASVILLE

DEAR JASON & ERIN: Your plans did not arrive as an attachment, so I am unable to speak to them. If your concern is with properly pressure preservative columns prematurely decaying when embedded in ground, then Permacolumn Sturdi-Wall Plus brackets are indeed your best design solution. Unlike other, cheaper, brackets, these actually will resist moment (bending) forces and have ICC-ESR approvals as being Building Code conforming. For extended reading on Sturdi-Wall Plus brackets: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/05/sturdi-wall-plus-concrete-brackets/

Please forward your building plans, site address and best contact number to Caleb@HansenPoleBuildings.com, as our team can evaluate them for practicality as well as providing a firm price quote.

This entry was posted in Columns, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn holes, Pole Barn Planning, Barndominium, Concrete, Footings, floorplans, Professional Engineer and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Post Frame Possibilities, Engineer Sealed Plans in Canada, and Horse Barn Apartment

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru tackles reader questions about the possibilities of post frame wall height with columns atop a concrete wall, interpreting client needs into engineer sealed drawings, and the scope of a barn to accommodate horses on the main level and an apartment above.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Could I build tall (25 ft) walls with poles at 6ft on center on top of an 8″ thick concrete wall, with anchors as required? I have never built with pole system; always stick framed, but I need the larger spans for tempered glass walls. Thanks for your advice. TARUNO in LA HONDA

DEAR TARUNO: In answer to your question….maybe. With 25 foot tall walls, an eight-inch thick concrete wall may not prove to be adequate. We can incorporate ICC-ESR approved wet set brackets into top of your concrete, in order to attach columns. Walls would need to be checked, by our engineers, to assure they would have adequate amounts of sheathing to properly transfer shear loads from roof to ground. We are able to provide columns up to 60 foot lengths, so your wall height should not pose a challenge.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Is your company or you capable of interpreting customer wants into engineered drawings for permits compliance? MARTY in CALGARY

 

DEAR MARTY: This is exactly what we do for roughly a hundred new clients every day, seven days a week, in all 50 U.S. states. Unfortunately for you, we do not currently have Candian Building Codes programmed into our system.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: How tall would a barn have to be to accommodate horses on the bottom and eventually a 2 bed 2 bath apartment in the loft? JUSTINE in LITTLETON

DEAR JUSTINE: Before we get too deep into this, some things to consider: living above horses you will be faced with dust, odors, noise, insects and rodents. Most jurisdictions will require a two-hour fire separation between living and barn spaces, this means you have to have outside stairs and all structural supports for second floor need to be two-hour fire protected as well. You will have stairs to negotiate. Insurance is going to be very expensive. On to your question: Horses should have 10 feet of headroom, then thickness of your floor, 8 feet (or more) of ceiling height for your living space, then thickness of your roof system (raised heel trusses to blow in full depth of insulation from wall-to-wall will be nearly two feet thick). When all is said and done, you are looking at roughly a 22 foot eave height. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/05/how-tall-should-my-eave-height-be-for-two-stories/

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Horse Riding Arena, Pole Barn Design, Building Styles and Designs, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Apartments, Concrete, Footings, Barndominium, floorplans, Building Interior, Professional Engineer, Columns, Lofts and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Pool Insulation, Span Tables for Floor Joists, and Post Brackets

Today the Pole barn Guru addresses reader questions about the use of 2″ Dow Styrofoam sheets to help insulate and above ground pool, advice for a structurally sound 20×40 room with a loft in a building, and if post can be set onto a cinderblock wall.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I live in Minnesota and wanted to insulate my above ground pool. I cut sheets of 2” Dow styrofoam to fit in between the legs of the pool. I want to use pole barn steel to surround the pool frame to hide the styrofoam, any ideas? SHERRIE in MINNESOTA

DEAR SHERRIE: Maybe I should also be known as “Pool Barn Guru” LOL. All joking aside, if top and bottom edge of your pool support system are wooden, you could order steel panels to your pool’s vertical dimension (I’d probably hold top edge down somewhat to avoid folks being cut from top edge of steel) and screw panels directly to top and bottom supports. You could also reach out to your pool provider for suggestions. Best of success.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My 40’x60’x16’ shop is almost done being built. I’m wanting to do a 20×40 room in the back wall for a man cave type area, I can build the room no problem. The only thing I’m wondering is about the loft above the room. I’m having trouble figuring out what I need to do to build that 20×40 loft that will be structurally sound. What do I need to span 20’ for the floor without putting posts in the middle of the man cave. VINCENT in EAST ALTON

DEAR VINCENT: Luckily there are readily available span tables for floor joists. 2×12 #1 on 12″ centers https://www.southernpine.com/app/uploads/SPtable2_060113.pdf

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can you put the posts on a cinderblock wall that has enlarged footers under the block wall. I have a 30×30 continuous footer under the cinder block wall where I want to put the posts. The cinderblock wall is filled with concrete. Let me know your thoughts please? And thanks in advance. TAMI in MADISON

DEAR TAMI: Provided footings beneath your CMU wall are adequate in dimension, probably. In areas of your existing wall where ICC ESR approved engineered wet-set brackets for columns will be placed, existing blocks will need to be removed and replaced, so brackets can be properly poured into wall. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/05/sturdi-wall-plus-concrete-brackets/

 

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Building Interior, Columns, Lumber, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Building How To Guides and tagged , , , , , on by .

Sealed Plans, Column Brackets, and Plans for Engineering Project

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about Hansen Buildings providing engineer sealed plans, use of Simpson Strong-Tie column brackets in post frame, and plans of a Hansen Building for use in an independent building project for an engineering student.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you sell just the plans for pole barns? I am going to build a pole barn with Lumber sourced from a local saw mill. I need to find engineered plans for it for the building permit. Please let me know if this is possible. JAKE in TOOELE

DEAR JAKE: Thank you for reaching out to us. Our engineers will only seal plans when we are providing the materials, as it is their only way to guarantee materials specified actually get shipped to jobsite. Sourcing lumber from a local sawmill could be problematic from an engineering standpoint, as all wood will need to be grade stamped by an approved agency in order to have building engineered.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I see a lot of discussion about using the Sturdi-wall wet set bracket when using a concrete pier for posts. I was wondering if the Simpson CB (column base) is used in post frame construction? From their documentation it looks like that is what it was designed for. RON in HILO

DEAR RON: Simpson Strong-tie CB parts are rated for uplift loads, but not moment (bending) loads, hence should not be used for columns subjected to bending forces.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am currently a third year engineering student at California Polytechnic University, San Luis Obispo, and am doing an independent project with **** **** Farm SLO. **** **** SLO is a nonprofit that recently received a grant to purchase residential pole building (#10-0813). For my independent project I am researching, designing, and building a rain water catchment system, grey water catchment system and other modifications to the barn. In order to do this I need the complete blue prints of the barn. Is there a place I can access these blue prints/ CAD? If you need any further information please let me know. MARY in SAN LUIS OBISPO

DEAR MARY: Our archivist is researching availability of those plans. Meanwhile, it may be possible for one of our Building Designers to create a Sketchup, if this would prove helpful. As **** **** SLO is a qualified non-profit, we do offer a discount for them. Please advise Caleb@HansenPoleBuildings.com as to who we should be working with at **** **** to assist in moving this project forward.

 

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, floorplans, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Footings, Professional Engineer, Columns, Pole Barn Homes, Lumber and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Proper Ventilation, Condensation Control, and Post Treatment

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about ventilation, how to control condensation on fifteen year old building, and best practices for treated posts in ground or on specialty brackets.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a barn that doesn’t have soffit vents but it does have a ridge vent. I installed reflective insulation which seems to have dropped the temperature quite a bit. I also have a gable powered fan that does 2000 CFM. However it is about 8 to 10 feet lower than the ridge vent. Are these two things fighting each other do you think or should I take a pipe and vent it up to my ridge vent and to my fan to take the hot air out from the top or should I turn my gable fan off completely.
I could always try to install some soffit vents as well. KEN in GREENVILLE

DEAR KEN: Your ridge vent is a natural air exhaust point, as warm air will rise and exit through it. Any vents lower in your building should be air intakes (whether gable or soffit vents) and ratio of net free ventilation area between the two should be roughly equal (intake can be up to 10% greater area than exhaust, but should not be greater).

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a 30x56x10 Menards package with the inside finished off with drywall built 15 years ago. The roof was installed without any condensation control to the underside of the steel. The amount of condensation this past year created truss heave. All ceiling penetration’s are sealed and fiberglass blow in was installed to a r49 rating. what would be the most effective way to eliminate our condensation issue? Thank you for your time and knowledge. LOUIE in AMBOY

DEAR LOUIE: Drives me absolutely bonkers when providers or builders make no true efforts to advise customers on perils of condensation and how to prevent it. So easily, and inexpensively, done at time of construction.

Have two inches of closed cell spray foam applied to the underside of your roof steel. Make sure your dead attic space is adequately vented, ideally with soffit vents and ridge vent, or (if no sidewall overhangs) gable vents and ridge vent. If you do not have a vapor barrier under your concrete slab, apply a high quality sealer to it.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What are the pro’s and con’s for 6″x6″ posts to be set on a drilled whole with footer at the base then back filled VS drilled whole with footer poured to grade and using CBS/CBSQ column bases that are submerged into the footer while pouring so the 6″x6″ can be above grade.

Column bases are made by Simpson Strong-Tie on page 76 and 77 they also come in stainless steel. I attached the Simpson booklet for you to see the Column bases, I’m looking to build a 40’x40’x14′ pole barn with gable roof, one man door, 16′ wide x 13′ high insulated garage door, and a cement floor. I live in North East Ohio so I get a far amount of snow load.

Kind regards, DENNIS in CHESTERLAND

DEAR DENNIS: Properly pressure preservative treated columns, embedded in ground are unlikely to decay within lifetimes of anyone alive on our planet today https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/pressure-treated-post-frame-building-poles-rot/.

Simpson brackets you reference are not designed to withstand moment (bending) loads, just uplift and downward (gravity) loads. If your concern is properly pressure preservative treated columns will decay prematurely and do not want wood in ground, we can furnish your building kit package with Code compliant brackets and properly engineer concrete piers. Bracket mounting will increase your investment, somewhat, however if it results in your sleeping better at night, then they are well worth it.

 

This entry was posted in Ventilation, Footings, Columns, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Post Brackets, Cross Bracing, and Pressure Treated Wood

This week the Pole Barn Guru tackles reader questions about a building set into a slope with use of post brackets, the possible use of “cross bracing” for wall girts, and understanding pressure treated wood.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I would like to build a 32′ x 48′ 2 story pole building where two of the sides of at least the lower floor are at least partially set into the hillside on the property. I envision the two sides set into the hill to be concrete foundation walls. Sort of a daylight basement. The lower floor would be a woodshop and the upper floor a two bedroom apartment. I am assuming a concrete foundation with Laminated “poles” mounted in brackets as opposed to buried. the “poles” on the two sides set into the hill would be shorter than on the other two sides. With the available space, the two story concept works better than having everything on a single story. Is this even possible? What would a ROM cost for a kit like that cost?

Thank you BILL in WEST RICHLAND

DEAR BILL: Your idea is totally possible. I have done it myself. In my case I had 12 feet of grade change across my building’s 40 foot width. I used ICFs full height on one sidewall and stepping down across rear endwall. Columns on these two walls were mounted using wet set brackets, other two walls had embedded columns. This process could also be used with poured concrete or block walls. We have also developed a system to use columns placed in a permanent wood foundation.

Attached photo is of my own building.

This is being shared with your Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer who will be reaching out to you shortly.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: When using bookshelf girts is cross bracing used between posts or are the girts when blocked provide the support? WINSTON in MOULTON

DEAR WINSTON: No cross bracing is required when using bookshelf girts. Once installed (ideally blocked solid to columns at each end) and sheathing (OSB, plywood, structural panels or steel siding) is applied, your wall and girts are more than adequately supported and this assembly is fairly rigid.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I read the article regarding treated wood. I am still a little puzzled as to what treating you would use for ground contact purposes, especially the upright poles. Do you have any other articles regarding this subject or have input you could email me? Much appreciated, thank you. KELLY in VICTOR

DEAR KELLY: Pressure preservative treated wood standards can be confusing even for lumber dealers, professional builders and building inspectors. For structural building columns, all end tags should have UC-4B marked on them. UC-4B is for “Heavy Duty” use. This American Wood Preservers Association infographic might prove helpful to understanding proper uses for pressure preservative treated wood: www.awpa.com/images/standards/ResidentialInfographic2020.pdf

 

 

 

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Beginning a Shouse Journey in Washington State Part I

A shouse (shop/house), barndominium or post frame house project may seem daunting, however by doing lots of reading, research and asking questions, an average individual can craft for themselves a home they love, tailored to meet their family’s wants and needs.

Loyal reader ROBERT in OLYMPIA writes:

“Hello to the Pole Barn Guru or whoever reads this!

​I came across Hansen Buildings a few years ago when I first became interested in pole barn homes, and have been following the content posted by the Pole Barn Guru in various places online- always great information!  I am finally zeroing in on purchasing a piece of land and I would like to get some more information on going the “Hansen route,” either for a shouse or a house and detached shop, or for just a shop.​

​I’ve spoken with my county’s planning department and was informed that there would be no problems building what I want.  The land is already improved with water and septic, is nice and flat, is south facing, and is zoned accordingly.  There is actually a building permit currently active from the previous owner’s stick built project (who passed away, and never further than the dig out for his foundation).  They told me that I could bypass some of the headaches (such as the Pocket Gopher review process) if I renew the permit before it expires (4/2020) and submit the new site plans…​

​My ideal setup would be:​

​– 50x90x(16 or 18) building​

-around 1200 square feet of living space, 2 bath, 2 bed, 1 “office”​

-3300 square feet as shop space with 1 bath and 1 utility sink.  Wired with electricity & lighting.​

-Very energy efficient (insulation, doors, windows, leakage).  Prefer spray foam if budget allows.​

-ERV?​

-1 large garage door/bay, 3″ thick​

-All large windows to be south facing with appropriately-sized overhangs (passive house principal).  These overhangs could potentially be in the form of a covered porch.​

-Enclosed overhang with vented soffits, but only on the eaves & vented ridge cap.  Solid gables.​

-Concrete piers with post brackets.​

-slight outward slope in concrete where garage doors meet concrete to make water drain away from/out of shop.​

-at least 2 drains in concrete – 1 near door, and one near a corner​

-insulated concrete slab w/ hydronic heating, sealed concrete flooring throughout (no other floor covering)​

-Possibly add ductless heat pump mini-split for additional heating if necessary. ​

-No cooling system necessary.​

-modestly finished interior​

-Ikea or similar non-custom kitchen​

-self-sourced appliances​

​Questions:​

​Someone at the Thurston county planning department told me that while the project definitely is doable, it might make more sense to build the home and shop as separate structures.  He mentioned that because they were attached, the whole building would have to meet WA energy code.  I guess he was implying that it would be cheaper to construct the shop separately if it didn’t have to meet that code?  Because I would like the shop to be insulated, does this really apply to me?  I’ve heard that insurance could potentially be cheaper with a detached setup, but I can’t seem to find anything concrete about that.  Have you found that to be the case?​

​As I mentioned I would like to do hydronic radiant heating (probably by Radiantec) throughout the home and shop.  From my research that seems like the most cost efficient way to heat (mass rather than air).  However, the shop doesn’t necessarily need to be kept at “living temperature” all the time.  I would like it to be comfortable while I’m in there, but beyond that I just need it to stay above about 40 degrees.  I’m interested to hear your input on this.  In reading, it seems like whenever people opt for something like a radiant tube heater or mini-split for the shop, they always regret not going with radiant floor heating.  Natural gas is not available at this location, so my options are propane, oil, wood, or electric.

​Because I’m very new to the world of home building, I’m not sure what other requirements there would be in building this.  I know that there are some pretty detailed drainage plans that exist for the previous project on the property, and I’m wondering who is in charge of creating new drainage plans for my project?  Does Hansen do that type of thing?  Or someone local to me?​

​Pricing/plans:  Is it possible to get some sort of idea about costs/cost breakdown for the type of building I described?  How about for separate structures?  I love the idea of doing some of the work myself, I’m just not sure how realistic that really is with my work schedule, especially in the summer.  I would probably need contractor(s) to take care of the majority of the major work.​

​Do you have any floor plans similar to what I’ve described?  I have a few different ideas on different floor plan ideas but it’s probably easier/cheaper to just use some existing plans.​

​I love the “Shouse” idea but I find it a little overwhelming because there is not a “turn key” option like what exists from traditional home builders like Adair Homes in Olympia.  So to get the job done would require basically managing the project with a crew of different contractors to finish the shell, concrete, insulation, electrical, plumbing, finishing, etc……I just would really prefer something a little different and more energy efficient than standard construction.​

​As of right now, I think those are all of the questions that I have.​

​Thank you very much for your time and I look forward to hearing back!​”

​Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Come back tomorrow for Part Two.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Building Overhangs, Pole Barn Homes, Pole Barn Planning, Workshop Buildings, Pole Barn Structure, Building Contractor, Post Frame Home, Concrete, Barndominium, Building Drainage, Budget, Shouse, Porches and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Real Estate Value, Post Brackets, and Interior Finishing

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: As a licensed Real Estate agent and looking to move, I realize how crazy the market is (at least in Michigan and the Grand Rapids Area).

Considering building a pole barn home for my wife and I when we sell our house, however what about resale value?

My concern is regarding appraisal or the possibility of having comparables should we need to sell after we build. At best I could think of manufactured, but that would depend on what the building is “labeled” as. Speaking to a professional lender he seemed convinced that I would HAVE to have a cash buyer, or someone doing a portfolio loan at 15% down.

Do you know of anyone who was able to sell their pole barn house with financing, and if so, what did the appraiser use as their comps?

Thank you in advance! GAGE in ROCKFORD

Gambrel roof pole barnDEAR GAGE: Post frame homes will have the same value as a comparably sized and featured stick built home. Think of it from this aspect – both have permanent foundations, both are constructed onsite out of wood framing. The structural system is “wood framed”. Period.

When you (or a buyer) go to get a loan, remember to use “wood framed” otherwise you will entirely confuse the lender. For comps, your appraiser will be looking at other similar sized and featured wood framed homes which have sold recently in your area.

I cannot vouch for people selling their homes with financing, however I financed and refinanced my own home and with two very elaborate post frame accessory buildings (both of which are livable spaces). Through three appraisals, never once did the question of post frame come up.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Wondering if you can place the 6×6 pole onto a concrete foundation with brackets that hold pole to concrete?

DEAR JOE: Yes, it can be done, provided the 6×6 is adequate to carry the loads being imposed upon it. Here is information on the brackets: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/09/concrete-brackets-2/.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a pole barn that I would like to finish the interior on
the posts are spaced 8′, the building has 7/16 osb over the wall girts (vinyl siding), I did a cut
and cobble job of rigid foam (1 inch) . My idea is to use 7/16 osb to finish inside and Maybe add sheetrock at some point- my concern is the support of interior walls-do I just let the wall girts carry the load or do I figure a way to anchor into posts? Thanks very much, Robert in Middletown.

DEAR ROBERT: Not sure why you would want to go to the added expense of placing OSB on the inside and then later adding gypsum wallboard, other than your post frame building frame may have too much deflection to prohibit taped drywall joints from cracking.

Before adding GWB (gypsum wall board) you should verify with the engineer who designed your building to make sure it is adequately rigid to be able to support it. If you are unable to contact the engineer, then you should consult with a RDP (Registered Design Professional – architect or engineer) who can confirm it is adequate, or recommend a fix or fixes if it is not.

Once you know all is good, a set of girts should be attached to the inside of the columns to support the GWB. This will also create an insulation cavity where you can add fiberglass batts or even better – do BIBs (information on BIBs here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/bibs/).


 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Planning, Footings, Building Interior, Columns, Pole Building Comparisons and tagged , , , , , , on by .
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