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a BONUS PBG for Friday, May 31st — Column Spacing, Raised Floors, and a Self-Build

a BONUS PBG for Friday, May 31st — Column Spacing, Raised Floors, and a Self-Build

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have spoken to my architect and he is saying to do my column spacing 8′ with truss every 4′. I have looked at your videos and several other videos. I noticed 10′ or 12′ Columns with double truss is more than enough. This is going to be my house for now and later turn into my garage when my actual house it built. The size is 30x60x12. Also I will be using shingles for my roof since my HOA doesn’t allow metal. I am wanting to be efficient and save money but also have this built safely. ANGEL in SEALY

DEAR ANGEL: In our country, there are several places where post frame standard is just as your architect describes, however this is not necessarily most efficient for use of materials, structural sufficiency or ease of construction. We have provided roughly a hundred fully engineered post-frame buildings to our clients in Texas and I can assure you, columns every 12 feet with double trusses works admirably. While shingled roofs do not have longevity like steel roofing, we have clients who opt for this option.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I read your article about raised floors in post frame homes. I live in a flood prone area an was considering something like this. Do you have any other information or details? https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/03/raised-floors-post-frame-homes/ SEAN in PRAIRIEVILLE

DEAR SEAN: Thank you for your interest. One of our team members will be reaching out to you shortly, as we do need some very specific information in regards to your building site. This will include actual elevation of site, as well as your potential flood data.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hey there! I’m wanting to self build a 50×70 or a 48×72 which is probably more cost savings. 16′ height and I’m leaning towards 10′ spacing. It’s a 3 sides equipment storage building. One of the 70′ sides being open. I need any help you can give on post spacing, 3ply or 4ply , truss spacing and a double header if I’m not locking into the post with the truss because the spacing won’t allow. I’m open to any suggestions. ERIK in SEYMOUR

DEAR ERIK: We do offer a 5% discount on buildings with multiples of 6′ in width and 12′ in length (read more here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2024/04/13-can-be-very-fortunate/). You will probably find columns every 12 feet on your open sidewall to be most ideal for equipment storage – as trying to maneuver even a full sized pickup or SUV through 9’8″ between posts can prove a good way to lose a mirror. Our typical engineered design is going to place trusses directly aligned with columns, so dealing with headers between columns becomes a non-issue. Your Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer Cory will be working with you to make sure you get your best possible value for your investment.

 

This entry was posted in Budget, floorplans, Columns, Lofts, Lumber, Pole Barn Homes, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Building Styles and Designs, Building Department, Barndominium, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Best Practice for Closing and Insulating 2×10 Headers

Best Practice for Closing and Insulating 2×10 Headers
Reader DAVE in VIROQUA writes:

“Best practice for closing and insulating 2×10 headers. My pole barn has building wrap then closed cell spray foamed walls. Ceiling not yet installed but want to use blown in fiberglass with vapor barrier. The spray foam on walls goes up to the bottom edge of the outer header. Before the ceiling is installed and insulated what is your suggestion to close and insulate the double 2×10 header to prevent moisture issues etc.? My walls will be finished off at a later date. Building has vented soffits and ridge vent. Roof panels have drip guard on underside as well. The post framing is laminated 2×6-3ply. Thank you.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru pens:
One of my pet peeves of what I refer to as 4 & 8 buildings (trusses every 4′, columns every 8′) is when truss carriers (headers between columns) are applied to column faces, rather than being notched in. Rarely are fasteners sufficient to be able to resist loads imposed by those once every hundred years snow storms, resulting in roofs lowered to top of vehicle levels. 

Besides connection challenges, it further reduces actual amount of usable interior space. As an example, builders/providers will set outside of exterior (barn style) girts at Building Lines, and to finish interior requires adding yet another set of face mounted wall girts. This ends up with wall framing 8-1/2″ thick. On a 24′ wide building, if 1/2″ gypsum wallboard is used, interior finished dimension ends up being only 22’6″!

In answer to your question, you’ll want to enclose above double 2×10. This can be done by cutting strips of whatever low cost sheet good you can find (OSB, plywood, etc.) and installing them between trusses on top of truss carriers. Fill cavity between 2x10s with closed cell spray foam.

Hopefully you will not have issues with your current closed cell spray foam applied to a weather resistant barrier. Best practice is to spray directly to inside of steel (please read more here https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/04/spray-foam-insulation-3/)

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Notching Columns, Use of Winch Box, and Financing

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about the best way to notch columns to support a header, nailing truss pairs when using a winch box, and financing of a post frame home.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I need to cut a 1/4″ out of my posts for the headers to set in a 2-ply design, one exterior one interior to the post. What’s the best way to accomplish this? Before the posts are set or in the air after they are standing? DAN in WEST HARRISON

truss notchDEAR DAN: I surmise your headers (aka truss carriers) are LVLs. While I personally prefer to place ganged two-ply trusses directly into notches in columns, in cases where truss carriers are used, I like to see them fully notched into columns, rather than having to rely upon connectors (whether nails, bolts or a combination) to resist gravitational (snow and dead) loads. Fully notching in interior carrier, also provides for an interior surface where no members project inside plane of columns, making for ease of adding an interior finish. In either case, I would cut my notches in only after columns have been raised and set. This assures me bottoms of all notches are at an exact height.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I plan to use 4 winch boxes to lift full truss bays.

If raising double trusses as full bays, the interior double trusses cannot be nailed together, face to face, until the adjacent bay has been lifted, correct? In other words, you can’t raise the double truss on the ground if the goal is to install all purlins on the ground in all bays?

If raising trusses as full truss bays, it would seem 1 bay cannot be lifted this way, due to the need to have end wall/gable trusses needing to be flush to outside edge of building, correct?

Distance from end truss outside face to end truss outside face is identical to building length.

It would seem as though column notches can be on the same side in all bays except 1, due to the end wall trusses needing to be notched on the outside to be flush with outside building edge (which would make the end wall notches face in opposite directions). Is this correct? MATT in SPOKANE

DEAR MATT: Our engineered building plans show first pair of trusses in from each endwall to be oriented on side of columns towards endwall. This allows for each end bay to be winched up in their entirety with all purlins in place other than eave strut and fascia. Purlins for middle bay of a three bay building will need to be thrown up by hand.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Financing are we able to treat this like a regular home construction for mortgage purposes? Can we include it in our mortgage? If so, how does it work? If not, do you offer financing? Is the pricing for the kit only materials and all the electrical, plumbing, kitchen cabinets, lights, etc all additional? If we can finance in our mortgage how do we add all these costs also? MICHELLE in YORK

Ask The Pole Barn GuruDEAR MICHELLE: Amanda (Hansen Pole Buildings’ financing wizardress) received a notification from you filling out our finance questionnaire; however, was waiting to get back to you until your quote was complete so we would have a better idea of how much you would need to borrow.

To answer your questions, you would need to speak with whoever holds your mortgage about whether or not you can include this with your mortgage. Every bank is different and some banks won’t even give loans for post frame construction like what we sell. We have a few different finance options; some like a regular mortgage, some just a personal loan, and another a home improvement loan (considered a second mortgage).

Our kits include materials for your building structure only. Our finance options do allow you to include electrical, plumbing, etc. Whether you can, or how to finance those things in your mortgage or not I unfortunately can’t answer. You would need to speak with your mortgage lender.

This entry was posted in Post Frame Home, Barndominium, Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Trusses, Building Interior, Professional Engineer and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Ceiling Insulation, Truss Spacing, and Custom Multi-use Barn

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about best way to insulate a vaulted ceiling, truss spacing, and the possibility of adding a small living quarter to a horse barn.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: With a vaulted ceiling, how do you insulate it if you plan to spray the tin roof with closed cell foam. Was planning on bat insulation on the lower cords of the trusses if needed. what about venting if you spray foam the tin roof? CHRIS in DORCHESTER

DEAR CHRIS: Saline County is located in Climate Zone 5A. As such conditioned buildings require R 60 attic insulation.

You can either:

Have a conditioned attic space – using closed cell spray foam at least two inches thick against underside of roof deck, then adding open cell spray foam or unfaced rock wool batts to get to required R value. This assembly will not be ventilated.

Or

An unconditioned attic. If you have no other method of condensation control, then again place two inches of closed cell spray foam directly to roof steel interior. Vent eaves and ridge, then blow in R 60 of fiberglass across attic. Insulation baffles will need to be placed at eaves to allow for at least an inch of unobstructed air flow above blown in insulation.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello Mike, I have a question regarding a post frame building I would like to build. the size is 40′ x 32′ x 16′ with 6/12 roof pitch. I am planning to use trusses at 2′ foot centers. my question is regarding using 3 tab composition shingles for my roof covering (I have a HOA that will not allow metal roofs), what special considerations might I need to take with respect to where the trusses attach to the top of the post frame wall? the posts will be at 8′ centers and standard girts installed. I was thinking that perhaps increasing the dimensions of the top girt would be necessary. I would appreciate your thoughts on my intentions. I have enjoyed your YouTube videos as well. Sincerely MARK in CODY

Ask The Pole Barn GuruDEAR MARK: Thank you for your kind words about our YouTube videos. https://www.youtube.com/user/HansenBuildings
Personally, I would place double trusses to bear directly upon columns spaced every 10 to 12 feet with purlins on edge, joist hung between truss top chords. This design results in fewest number of holes needing to be dug, as well as fewest pieces of materials to have to install. It also allows for wider door openings.

Doing as you propose, truss carriers (headers between columns to support trusses) would need to be adequately sized by your building’s engineer in order to carry imposed loads without failure or undue deflection.

 

About Hansen BuildingsDEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you all have barns with living quarters? Not looking for a barndominium, per se, but a restroom with a shower and a living room in addition to 4 stalls and a tack room. we plan on staying there at first while we build the main house on the property, then use for guests or storage. SARAH in SARASOTA

DEAR SARAH: We have provided a plethora of barns with living quarters and every building we provide is custom designed to best meet our client’s wants and needs.

Typically, you should expect to have to two-hour fire separate barn from living area, meaning you cannot go directly from one occupancy to another without going outside in order to do so. For this reason, many of our clients have opted to have a roof only breezeway area between these dissimilar occupancies.

This entry was posted in Trusses, Ventilation, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Professional Engineer, Constructing a Pole Building, Columns, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Homes, Pole Barn Planning, Barndominium and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Reason You Go With Engineered Prints

Reason You Go With Engineered Prints

Yes, I know some of you gentle readers are offended by my harping on how important it is to build only from site specific fully engineered plans. Well, here is a case study.

Reader AARON in CARBON HILL writes:

“Reason you go with engineering prints. My contractor said it’s how we always do it. Well after they fell he said we need to discuss payment on the work I’ve done I paid for all material up front. I’m not paying c**p he should pay me for the lost and damages.”

As far as engineering goes, it appears columns have an unsupported length of under 131 inches.

Why would this be important?

For a roof only building, such as this, columns are carrying all of the bending loads from winds. Sound engineering practice, says wood column’s least dimension (5-1/2 inches) x 50 divided by Ke (2.1 in this instance) equals maximum unsupported length.

5.5” x 50 / 2.1 = 130.95”

K factor approximates length a column actually buckles at. This effective length can be longer, shorter or exact depending upon rigidity of supports. As a roof only structure has no means to transfer horizontal loads through endwall sheathing, columns act as cantilevers (think diving board). For a building with sufficient endwalls Ke would be 0.85 (makes a huge difference).

Truss carriers appear to be sketchy, however not having site loads, nor size, grade and species of them, it is impossible to verify (and none of them appear to have failed in photos provided).

What is absent? Temporary and permanent truss bracing.



I have expounded on how important temporary truss bracing is previously (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/12/temporary-truss-bracing/). I advised Aaron this appeared to be the cause of his now firewood. Also – this one is on his builder, who has some cajones asking to be paid when he caused this mess.


AARON responded, “Yep thanks I just thought if anyone wanted to see what happens when your contractor doesn’t follow the prints. Feel free to share with anyone. We will be ordering a new building kit and go with a contractor with more references. Thanks.”

Currently, there is such a shortage of builders, every Chuck-With-A-Truck, a hammer, circular saw, big dog and loud radio seems to think they can hop in and make big money. Don’t be caught in Aaron’s situation – always thoroughly vet any contractor https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/04/vetting-building-contractor/.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Planning, Building Contractor, Trusses, Columns and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Can I Turn an Existing Pole Barn into a Barndominium

Can I Turn an Existing Pole Barn into a Barndominium?

Reader MICHELLE in GALLATIN writes:

“Hi Mike, my name is Michelle and I live in Nashville Tennessee. I am under contract on an existing pole barn (30′ x 60′) that I am going to turn into a Barndominium. (Picture attached) Today we had the structural engineer come out because the city tells me I will need a letter from him saying the building is up to codes before they will issue a building permit. The structural engineer is not familiar with Barndominiums and has some questions about the roof sleepers. Everything else checks out OK. Is there any possibility he could call you to pick your brain on this? I am willing to pay you for your time on the phone call. Just so you know I am looking to do the spray foam on the ceiling and walls as per all the discussions I read on the barndominium Facebook page. Please feel free to call me if you’d rather talk this through more on the phone with me before the structural engineer calls you. If you decide you have the time to take his call.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says: Because Michelle is so nice, here are my insights, addressed by photo:

Wood entry door in wood jambs should be replaced with an insulated, factory painted, steel door with factory painted steel jambs


Reflective Radiant Barriers (RRB) are only effective at controlling condensation when seams are thoroughly taped together.



Roof trusses are unlikely to have been designed to support a ceiling load – requiring further analysis. Provided they are either adequate, or can be repaired to carry a ceiling load, heels are not deep enough to provide full depth of insulation from wall-to-wall. Design solutions could include (a) remove reflective radiant barrier from roof and use closed cell spray foam insulation to underside of roof deck, or (b) use closed cell spray foam closest to eaves on top of ceiling with blown fiberglass to R-60 in balance of attic area. Spray foam needs to be installed to allow for at least one inch of clear airflow above. Diagonal braces at corners are inadequate to properly transfer shear loads. It is possible to replace screws at top and bottom of each roof and wall panel with 1-1/2″ #12 diaphragm screws, with one each side of every high rib. This should get you to 80-90 pounds per lineal foot of shear resistance.


Eave lights should be removed as they will not transfer shear loads and will be covered with insulation and interior finish materials. Truss carriers (and their connections) should be checked for adequacy to carry concentrated loads from intermediate trusses. As a carrier is on the inside face of columns, an interior set of wall girts will need to be added to support finishes.


Sliding doors will need to be replaced either with solid walls, or an appropriate door or window(s). I would want to see an X brace between the end truss and the next truss at centerline connected to each chord with a Simpson LSTA12 or similar.


Connections between roof purlins and trusses are probably inadequate, particularly at endwalls.



Truss bottom chords should be braced laterally no less than 10′ on center (and probably more like every 6-7′). Ceiling joists would fulfill this requirement.


Remove any current concrete slabs – re-pour four inches thick over no less than four inches of compacted gravel, a 6mil minimum well-sealed vapor barrier and ideally R-10 EPS insulation boards.



If a dead attic space will be created, provide venting at eaves and ridge


Roof steel is showing signs of aging, I would recommend replacing – remove RRB and order roof steel with an Integral Condensation Control factory applied, unless roof assembly is to be insulated only with spray foam insulation.


Perimeter of slab should be insulated with R-10 EPS boards down two feet, then outwards two feet

My recommendation – I would continue to use this building strictly as a barn and erect a new, fully engineered and Code conforming post frame home elsewhere on this property. Bringing this building up to meet Code requirements as a dwelling will cost more in time and labor than building is worth. https://hansenpolebuildings.com/2022/01/why-your-new-barndominium-should-be-post-frame/

This entry was posted in Budget, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Roofing Materials, Pole Barn Planning, Post Frame Home, Pole Barn Structure, Barndominium, Ventilation and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , on by .

Financing, Beam Sizes, and a 3 Ply Truss Connection

Today the Pole barn Guru answers reader questions about available financing for a pole building, a required beam size for 20′ post spacing, and a small connection for 3 ply trusses.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you offer financing? Thanks. DERRICK in DETROIT

DEAR DERRICK: Yes, we offer a variety of financing options. Please visit www.HansenPoleBuildings.com/financing for details and to apply.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What size wooden beams would be required if I want to space the poles 20′ apart. 60′ trusses. 14′ to the bottom of the trusses. And would 10×10 columns be enough or do I have to go larger? Location is in southern, VA. Thanks, JAMES

DEAR JAMES: Column and/or truss carriers (wooden beams) sizes should be determined by the Registered Professional Engineer who is sealing your engineered structural building plans. Size and grade will be determined based upon a plethora of factors – design wind speed and exposure, roof slope, roof live and dead loads, roofing and siding materials, lateral soil bearing pressure, if there will be proper constrainment by a concrete slab on grade, etc.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My truss designer has spec’d 3ply trusses on 8′ centers for a shingle roof with 2×6 hung purlins. I haven’t seen anyone describing the best way to attach these to a 6×6 post. If I notch them, there will only be 1 inch remaining at best and it seems bolting to the remaining 1 inch may not be worth it. What is best practice for this type of attachment to a post. PETER in CHAPEL HILL

DEAR PETER: Unless your building has a very wide clearspan, or some huge dead loads (or perhaps a bonus room) a three ply truss seems strangely unusual. You might want to reach out to other possible truss manufacturers to see if you can get a two ply design. While I have seen three ply trusses notched in 4-1/2 inches approved by engineers, if indeed this is your final truss design solution, you should confirm connection adequacy by reaching out to your building’s Engineer of Record.

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Trusses, Professional Engineer, Columns, Lumber, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Screw Penetration, Truss Carrier Requirements, and Roof Insulation

Today’s Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about screw penetration into decking/substrate, header aka truss carrier requirements, and a proper roof insulation solution.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Should the screws for exposed fastener metal panel roofing COMPLETELY penetrate the 1/2″ plywood decking/substrate? STEVE in WARREN

DEAR STEVE: For through screws, they should not only completely penetrate any substrate, but also at least an inch into underlying purlins. Relying upon screws into decking only could prove to be a failure looking for a place to happen in a severe wind situation.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: On a 14’ x20’ building with 4×6 post 8’ tall what are the requirements for the header beam or beams? Can I use two 2x10s one out and one inside? TIM in STATE ROAD

Ask The Pole Barn GuruDEAR TIM: Header beam (aka truss carrier) requirements can be determined by a Registered Professional Engineer and are based upon this formula:

(Roof live and dead loads) x (1/2 span of truss + any eave overhang in feet) x (column spacing in feet squared)

Divided by

8 x Sm (Section modulus of proposed beam) x Fb (Fiberstress in bending of proposed beam) x Cd (Duration of Load)

If resultant is less than 1, then beam is okay.

Here is an example, based upon assumption your building is in a minimal snow area, steel roofing over purlins, no or light weight ceiling) columns are every 10 feet, one foot overhangs and available lumber is 2×10 SYP #2

(20 psf + 10 psf) x (14’/2 + 1’) x 10’^2 / 8 x 21.3906 (Sm of a 2×10) x 800 x 1.15 = 0.15 <= 1

For sake of this example, a single 2×10 #2 SYP would be adequate in bending. It may not be adequate for meeting required bearing area (can be confirmed with truss manufacturer).

Beams and connections should also be verified for adequacy against uplift forces, as well as deflection.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’m about to build my ‘Miracle Truss’ building which uses steel trusses with lumber purlins/girts. I have a concrete slab with 2″ Styrofoam and radiant heat to provide some warmth in the winter. I’m thinking of using foil/single bubble vapor barrier in between the roof sheeting and wood purlins. In the future I’d like to add bat insulation to the inside of the roof. For the walls I’m not sure if I should use a foil radiant film – non-permeable…or if I should instead use house wrap like ‘Tyvek’. Again, as time and $$ allows I’d like to add bat insulation and maybe OSB half way up the walls. I’d appreciate your professional opinion on how best to ‘wrap’ my building and also ‘future proof’ it in case I happen to win the lottery and can afford to fully insulate it someday. Thank you. RICK in HILLSBORO

DEAR RICK: Code will not allow you to place batt insulation between your purlins unless you have at least an inch of continuous airflow above from eave to ridge. Impossible to do given orientation of roof purlins.

I would use two inches of closed cell spray foam directly to underside of your roof steel. Later, you could fill balance of cavity between purlins with unfaced rock wool, or open cell spray foam. For your walls, use a Weather Resistant Barrier (aka house wrap) and you can add either Kraft faced batts or unfaced batts with a 6mil vapor barrier on the interior at a later date.

 

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Roofing Materials, Pole Barn Heating, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Building How To Guides, Trusses, Ventilation, Professional Engineer and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Remodel or Not?

Remodel or Build New?

I am as guilty as most – my initial reaction is always to remodel, rather than build new. Even when it makes no practical or economic sense.

Reader JIM in LAWTON is working through one of these situations. He writes: 

“I have a 30 x 40 pole barn 32 years old. I want to take the 4/12 pitch trusses off and add bonus room trusses with a 10/12 pitch and a shingled roof, it is now metal. The new trusses will free span the 30’. My concern is the 4×6 posts holding everything up. They are 8’ on center, 54” down. I met with the building inspector and he inspected the poles and footers on two poles, one on each side of the building. The footers are a concrete block 4x8x16, poles are 4×6. I drove two nails in the two exposed posts 6” and 12” down and the centers didn’t seem soft at all. The building inspector says go ahead and beef up the headers and build up. I don’t want any issues. I am doing the work myself. Do you feel there is anything else I should do to confirm the posts will support the additional weight? The room is going to be an extra bedroom. Anything else meaning contact a structural engineer and pay big bucks for their opinion. Thanks, Jim.”

You are aware your remodel will be more expensive than erecting a brand new building?

Chances are good your existing building was built as a low risk building, if it was engineered and permitted at all. Adding in a bedroom makes it a higher risk building, increasing design loads for both wind and snow. From your limited information provided, your columns will not be large enough, footing diameters will need to be increased, headers (truss carriers) will need to be increased to support probably at least a load twice as much as what was there.

If you do indeed decide to move forward as you suggest, you would be making a grave error to not have an engineer inspect what you have and make recommendations to bring your existing building up to current Code and to be adequate to support your remodeled design.

 Mike the Pole Barn Guru

P.S. Due to shingles’ very short lifespan, I would recommend you go with a steel roof.

This entry was posted in Trusses, Footings, Professional Engineer, Lumber, Columns, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Building Department, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Truss Spacing for Shingled Roofs

Roof truss spacing seems to be a topic with no consensus. Most Americans live in traditional stick framed houses, apartments or condominiums, where roof trusses (if they were utilized, rather than using dimensional lumber rafters) are most typically spaced every two feet.

Reader CHARLIE writes:

“Dear Hansen Pole Buildings, May I ask how far apart was the Truss placement in your “Re-roofing with Shingles” article? 

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/01/re-roofing-with-shingles/

I’m considering a 24’x 36’ pole barn for a recording studio build but would need asphalt shingle type roof. I’m concerned that a suitable design would need additional rafters to meet the 7 lb/sq ft load requirement.

Most designs I have seen are showing the trusses 4’ OC. 

Respectfully, Charlie”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:
In this particular article roof trusses were actually spaced with a pair every 12 feet – directly aligned with sidewall columns. This style of post frame construction affords several advantages:

Fewer holes to dig. There is nothing more deflating than getting down to digging one or two last column (pole) holes and hitting a rock larger than a Volkswagon Beetle! Minimization of holes to be dug reduces chances of underground surprises.

No need for truss carriers (structural headers) between columns in order to support trusses. Structural failures are almost always due to connection issues. Truss carriers rarely have adequate fasteners from header to columns and trusses themselves are rarely anchored sufficiently to them.

By far my most read article of all time has been on pole barn truss spacing: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/06/pole-barn-truss-spacing/.

Asphalt shingles need to be installed over asphalt impregnated paper (felt) or ice and snow shield, most usually over OSB (Oriented Strand Board) or plywood. Weak link of this system is spanning ability of this underlying sheathing.

In order to be within spanning capabilities of common sheathing, dimensional lumber roof purlins, on edge, were joist hung between truss pairs, every two feet.

When you order a post frame (pole barn) kit from Hansen Pole Buildings with asphalt shingles, we automatically have our engineers design for this added load, as well as reducing deflection criteria so you end up with a nice, smooth roof. We also take into consideration Building Code requirements to account for a future overlaid reroof (even “lifetime” shingles will not last anywhere near a lifetime).


Considering a shingled roof due to how long they are warranted? You might want to read this article first: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/03/shingle-warranties/.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Roofing Materials, Pole Barn Planning, Trusses, Fasteners and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Overhead Door Header Problems

Overhead Door Header Problems (and More)


Reader MITCH in NASHVILLE writes:

“I recently purchased a property that the previous owner had just built a 30×50 pole barn on. It has foil faced double bubble on the roof and walls. I need to heat and possibly cool the space. What are the options for insulating the ceiling? The ridge is vented. There is no soffit and thus no vent there. The trusses are 5ft apart. Your all-seeing wisdom is appreciated.”

There are times I wish I was not what Mitch feels is “all-seeing”, because I find lots of problems in photos building owners are unaware of. 

Back in my post frame building contractor days I would go visit some of our newly constructed buildings, as time and logistics allowed. I generally had very, very good crews and we had an extremely high satisfaction rate from our clients. I would find things wrong (in my eyes anyhow) and send crews out to make repairs. More than once I would field phone calls from clients asking what was going on. They were perfectly happy with their buildings. I would explain to them they might be satisfied, but I was not!

Mitch’s photo shows a frequent challenge posed with post frame buildings where headers (in this case more appropriately known as truss carriers), support trusses between columns. I am not a gambler, but would place money on this not having been an engineered building. Just guessing, this builder used the same size truss carrier for all locations. Usually these truss carriers would be sized to support a single truss centered between two columns. Here, due to door location and width, this carrier supports two trusses, or double what it should have been carrying. 

Look back at this photo – there is a noticeable sag across overhead door top! This same sag will be evident along sidewall eave line outside.

Before any thoughts of insulating are considered, a competent professional engineer should be engaged to design an appropriate repair for this header. Engineer should be advised this header will also need to be capable of handling the weight of a ceiling without undue deflection occurring.

Moving forward, contact the roof truss manufacturer to get a truss repair to upgrade trusses to support at least a five psf (pounds per square foot) bottom chord dead load, with 10 psf being even better. Each truss should be stamped with information of who fabricated them.

Once header and truss repairs have been completed, use white duct tape to seal all gaps present in your roof’s radiant reflective barrier. Without these being sealed, there is a potential for warm moist air to get between barrier and roof steel and condensing.

Place ceiling joists on hangers between roof truss bottom chords every two feet. Your previously engaged engineer can verify if 2×4 Standard ceiling joists will be adequate.

Install vents in each gable end. Placed in the top half of each gable, a net free venting area of 360 square inches or more will be required for each endwall.

Hang 5/8” Type X gypsum wallboard on bottom of ceiling joists, leaving an attic access somewhere towards building center. Have a spray foam insulation installer apply closed cell foam along a two foot strip closest to each sidewall. Blow in fiberglass, cellulose or rock wool insulation across remainder of ceiling surface.

This entry was posted in About The Pole Barn Guru, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Building How To Guides, Trusses, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , , , on by .

An Oops from a Competitor’s Architect Part Two- Lateral Load

As the Architect Turns

In our previous episode, we left Dan tied to railroad tracks in front of a speeding train….

Well close, we left Dan with a post frame building designed by an architect, with some serious structural connection problems.  Now I am a guy who watches Science Channel’s “Engineering Catastrophes”. I would just as soon we do not view Dan’s barndominium as one of them.

Moving forward from our last article:

It will shred LVL and/or column – wood is your weak link

You need to calculate the area being carried by one beam end beam – on an 8′ beam with 18′ joists you would have 8’/2 X 18’/2 = 36 sft (square feet).

Minimum floor live load (other than for bedrooms) is 40 psf (pounds per square foot) live load and you should figure 10 psf dead load for a total of 50 psf.

36 sft X 50 psf = 1800 pounds at each end of 8′ in this example.

Dan writes:

“So I have the table you referenced and I get the load calcs but what I am trying to figure out is how you got to the 7 ledgerlocks per post figure. What is the math to get from that table and the 3600 lbs per eight foot section to the amount of ledgerloks?

And since we have gone down this rabbit hole, should I start to get paranoid that one of my 3 truss carriers is affixed with 60d nails and that I need to do a lateral load calc on that in order to make sure it is properly connected?  My guess is that this design was based on shear as well…

Ugh  this is what goes on in the mind of a DIY builder who is a data analyst by day.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Let’s do a run-down of information from ESR-1078 for 5″ Ledgerlock Fasteners (for those playing along at home Google ESR-1078).

Table 1C specifies an overall length of 5″ and 3″ of thread length. Allowable fastener shear is 1235# which by Footnote 4, “Allowable shear strength values apply only to shearing in the unthreaded shank portion of the fastener”. This would be fastener failure itself. This however is not our limiting value.

Table 2 references withdrawal design values – LVL is not likely to be sucked away from column by wind, so not applicable.

Table 3 is head pull-through design values – these values limit numbers derived from Table 2, again not applicable.

Table 4 is for Lateral Design Values in single shear. It lists a 5″ ledgerlock with a minimum of 1-1/2″ side member thickness and 3-1/2″ minimum main member thickness. As your LVL is 1-3/4″ thick, lateral design values will need to be adjusted downward by X 0.929 to account for a lesser length into column. Most glu-laminated post frame building columns are Southern Yellow Pine (SYP).  SYP has a specific gravity of 0.55, so a RDP could possibly calculate out values approximately 10% greater.

In your case, load is perpendicular to side member, parallel to column grain. Using Z perpendicular to grain and Sg of 0.5, adjusted for lesser depth into main member would give a value of 280# X 0.929 or 260.12#. Assuming an RDP could gain 10% for greater Specific Gravity, value per Ledgerlock would still be only 286.13#

With an 1800# load / 286.13# = 6.29 fasteners.

You might want to invest in having a qualified engineer review your plans for adequacy. Yes, there will be a price however you may have recourse against original provider and/or their architect in the event of significant structural deficiencies.

Had our Building Designer not given Dan bad advice, all of this could have easily been avoided. Hansen Pole Buildings, in conjunction with our third-party engineers has developed a sophisticated proprietary software program called Instant Pricing™. Not only will this system provide required investment for a myriad of design parameters in real time, it also does a complete structural analysis of every component and connection – assuring situations such as Dan has, will not arise.

This entry was posted in Fasteners, Pole Barn Homes, Post Frame Home, Pole Barn Questions, Barndominium, Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , , , on by .

Addition to House, Stone Floor Moisture Barrier

Today the Pole Barn Guru discusses a post frame addition to a house, whether or not one should use a plastic barrier under the stone floor in a steel building, and the ability of a truss carrier to handle imposed loads.

About Hansen BuildingsDEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi! We are considering a sizeable addition to our 600 sq ft bungalow style home, somewhere in the neighborhood of 30×40 ft addition. Wondering if it’s possible to do pole barn construction for this addition, and what kind of considerations would need to be made? The current home does have an existing basement with block foundation. I’ve read information regarding attaching a pole barn build to an existing house for use as a garage, but wondering how this scenario changes things? We would work with a licensed designer to draw up plans, and a licensed contractor for the build, but are just in the brainstorming phase at this point. KARI in WILLMAR

DEAR KARI: There are actually no real considerations for post frame not applicable to a stick frame building. You should work with a Hansen Pole Buildings designer for your building shell and we can provide engineer sealed plans for structural portions of the addition. You can work with an independent designer (FYI – there isn’t a category of licensing for designer) or create an interior layout of your own.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Should I put plastic down under the stone floor in a steel building? BOB in WYALUSING

DEAR BOB: It certainly would not harm anything and will help to minimize condensation issues. Look at a 15ml thickness. For more information on vapor barriers see: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/11/vapor-barriers-slabs-grades/

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Really wondering if a 2×12 SYP MSR 2400 will hold my 32ft trusses 2ft oc poles 6×6 8 oc. 1 2×12 on outside and 1 on inside. Is the 2×12 SYP MSR 2400 strong enough to hold the weight? CHRISTOPHER in CHESTERFIELD

CHRISTOPHER: In answer to your question – maybe. It will depend upon a myriad of factors including (but not limited to) Ps (roof snow load adjusted for slope), Dead loads from roofing, any roof sheathing, truss weight, any ceiling or insulation.

If you are so inclined, you can try this calculation yourself:

complex formulaLOAD (in psf – pounds per square foot) X (½ building width plus sidewall overhang in feet X 12”) X Distance spanned by beam squared (in feet)

Divide this by 8 X 2400 X 2 (for two members) X 31.6406 (Section Modulus of a 2×12) X 1.15 (Duration of Load for snow).

If your resulting answer is less than 1 then your beams will probably work.

Caveats – LOAD is Ps + all dead loads. For steel roofing over purlins 5 psf would be my recommendation. If a ceiling is to be installed a minimum of 5 psf should be added (10 psf being better).

Some important factors other than just strength include deflection (especially if trusses support a gypsum wallboard ceiling), minimum required bearing area and shear force at edge of bearing.

Frequently overlooked is connection of beams to columns. Notching in would be preferred to each face of columns.

Ultimately, RDP (Registered Design Professional – architect or engineer) who provided your sealed plans should be making a determination as to adequacy as well as providing appropriate connections.

 

This entry was posted in Lumber, Pole Barn Design, Trusses, Ventilation, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Homes and tagged , , , , , on by .

Prefab Wood Trusses are Sexy

Prefab Wood Roof Trusses Are Sexy Though

In 1952, in Pompano Beach, Florida, an inventor named Carroll Sanford had been experimenting with building prefabricated roof trusses using plywood gusset plates and varying concoctions and combinations of glue, staples, nails and screws. Eventually he conceived of light gauge steel plates with punched teeth to connect wooden members.

If this wasn’t a sexy use of technology, then I don’t know what would be.

A burgeoning pole barn (post frame) building industry was largely aided by this new ability to economically clearspan relatively large distances.

What Hansen Buildings does now and since 2002:

FEATURE: Prefabricated face-to-face doubled roof trusses.

BENEFIT: Provides an engineered solution with clearspan widths of 80 feet and (in some instances) more. Endwall trusses make for quick and easy installation, while maintaining roof slopes.

True double trusses provide increased reliability due to their load sharing capabilities: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/09/true-double-trusses/.

EXTENDED READING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT:

My all-time most read article: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/06/pole-barn-truss-spacing/

Why most people should not order trusses: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/10/why-most-people-should-not-order-trusses/

WHAT OTHERS DO: Another feature with a myriad of possible outcomes. I will defer “how” trusses are attached to columns for a later article.

Theories of roof truss spacing become most generally divided up geographically. These geographic nuances do bleed over from one area to next, so are not cast in stone.

Eastern U.S. places single trusses upon two or four foot centers attached to tops of truss “carriers” – headers spanning from sidewall column to sidewall column. Here are a few words about truss carriers: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/10/what-size-truss-carriers/.

Midwest most often opts for a single truss aligned with sidewall columns. Spacing might be as little as 7’6” and as great as 10’.

Going West – expect a single truss each side of sidewall columns with paddle blocks to attach roof purlins. Learn about paddle blocks here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/05/paddle-blocks/.

While Eastern and Midwest post frame buildings generally feature trusses at each end. As one heads west, dimensional lumber rafters are often seen – relying upon building erectors to achieve proper alignment with interior trusses.

WHAT WE DID IN 1980: Back in green lumber land – Lucas Plywood & Lumber fabricated trusses out of green lumber. As spans (and dimensions of top and bottom chords) increased they became phenomenally heavy.For building ends, 2×12 #3 rafters were provided.

 

This entry was posted in Trusses, Lumber, Pole Barn Design, Pole Building Comparisons and tagged , , , , on by .

Correct Pole Size, The Better Building Size, and Drip Edge Placement

The Pole Barn Guru assists with questions about pole size, the “right” sized building, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a question on a pole barn.  I’m thinking of 50 by 60 and about 14ft high or so.  On the 4/4 poles, how far apart should they be.  Also on the headers, that are at the top and go all the way around, are they usually 2 by 8?  Thanks, JOE in BOWLING GREEN

DEAR JOE: Hopefully you trust me enough to believe I will steer you in a correct direction, because you are heading in a wrong one. Only one right way exists to get answers you seek, to order yourself a post frame building kit package with plans sealed by a registered design professional (RDP – engineer or architect) specifically for your building (not a generic photo copy). Done right – there will be no need to have headers all around your building, as double trusses should be placed directly to bear upon columns, insuring best possible structural connections. As to columns, they will need to be much larger than 4×4, regardless of how far apart they are spaced.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am trying to design a small hard apple cider production building. It does not need to have a retail portion; that is elsewhere at our farm; just a convenient 20×30 work room that can accommodate lots of washing/spraying down of equipment, temperature control, allow vehicle entry for loading/unloading, and some viewing windows for customers to see the process. Do you have some plans/designs/kit for such a building?

Thanks and kind regards, TOM in ROSE HILL

Hansen VisionDEAR TOM: You’ll want to make certain your proposed 20′ x 30′ area will be adequate for all of your needs. You may find increasing building footprint to say 24′ x 36′ to not be significantly more expensive of an investment, whilst providing 44% more space. With every building we provide being a custom design to best fit client needs, we can certainly provide exactly what you are looking for. A Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer will be in contact with you shortly.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: 14 foot side wall panels with 2×8 skirt, what is my measurement on the skirt either from top of skirt or bottom to install my rat guard, I will have a 12 inch overhang (eaveside) using fj channel. CARL in NEWAYGOl

DEAR CARL:

 

 

 

 

This entry was posted in Columns, Workshop Buildings, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Planning, Trusses and tagged , , , , , on by .

Engineering Your Pole Building for Free

Please Let Me Engineer Your Post Frame Building For Free

Pole Barn Guru BlogBecause I am not a Registered Design Professional, I can’t engineer your new post frame building for you. And, if I was, I most certainly would not be doing it for free. Typically an engineer should be compensated somewhere in the area of 8 to 12% of the value of the project, depending upon how involved they have to be with it, as well as if a visit (or visits) to the site are included.

Reader TERRY in FORT WAYNE had written and had his original request fly off into cyberspace, so he tried again:

“Mike, Thanks for getting back to me. That doesn’t surprise me!! Questions: 1) My barn will be 44’x32′ x15′ wall height with the trusses running the 44′ way. What size of holes do I need to bore for my post anchors? I’m not barring my post, pouring concrete to the top with 18″ tall “U” brackets made from 1/4″ plate and (4) jay hooks 18″ long on the bottom of brackets that will be in the concrete 18″s. Also what size header do I need on the truss support side if I install trusses every 24″ with plywood and shingles with A 16′ oh door opening .( Wanted to match my existing garage roof.) I will be tying the new barn to the existing garage on one end. If not a good idea what header to use with trusses at 8′ and wood purlin and metal roof? Let me know if you need any more info. Thanks for your help. Dirt is clay and figured at 3-4K in my area.

If you have any questions please call.

Thanks.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru replies:
You are asking questions of me which should be directed to the RDP (Registered Design Professional – architect or engineer) who designed your building and provided the plans. These will include the foundation design as well as any truss carriers.

Some commentary – there are wet set brackets made specifically for post frame buildings. I would recommend you invest in them rather than trying to fabricate (or have fabricated) your own, unless they were designed by your RDP and inspected by him or her after production. For Clay soils, the Building Code allows a value of only 1500 psf – any greater values should be used only if an onsite soils test has been done by a registered engineer, else you are at risk of settling issues. See Table 1806.2 https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/IBC2015/chapter-18-soils-and-foundations.

If you are not too deep into your project and do not have an RDP involved, I would strongly encourage you to deal with a post frame building kit supplier who can provide engineer sealed plans and calculations for your building, along with the materials to assemble it and complete instructions.


 

 

This entry was posted in Trusses, Footings, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Building Department, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , on by .

Calling for the Wall Steel Stretcher

Calling For The Wall Steel Stretcher

In our last episode, the dilemma of how to get a smooth roof plane was solved, to the apparent joy of all involved.

However up cropped a new challenge, contributed to by us however pretty much on the builder and this is why.

You may recall the eave height of the building was to be 16 foot and five inches.

Long time readers will recall eave height appears to be a challenge for some of the most experienced readers, so much so as it is indicated no less than five times on every set of Hansen Pole Buildings plans, as well as 51 times in the Hansen Pole Buildings Construction Manual.

For more insights into eave height please read: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/02/eave-height-2/.

Our aforementioned Building Wizard decided to ignore the eave height markings found on multiple pages of the engineer sealed plans, and perhaps didn’t open the cover of the Construction Manual. Instead, one of our draftspersons had errantly placed a dimension on the plans for a height to the bottom of an LVL across an overhead door opening – and instead of questioning why this one single dimension did not add up to the multitude of places on the plans which had the correct dimension, he proceeded to construct the building 3 and ½ inches TOO TALL!!

Then he wondered why it was the wall steel was going to be too short!

Well, in order to prevent a major panic and cost, we came up with a solution to increase the height of the fascia by the needed difference. Here is when I got to personally fall into the trap of blunder – as I drew the correct trim on the “fix” drawing and put an incorrect part number with it. This resulted in the wrong trims being delivered to the jobsite and sending the builder off to Rantville.

And the “soffit nailer”? On the plans it is only described as the distance it is located down from the eave height – which is now 3-1/2 inches higher than the plans show. No, the distance from grade did not change, however it did move this distance down from the eave height, in order to make all of the wall steel work.

The fascia trim issue was solved by the client having some custom trims made locally, in exchange for us providing three extra sheets of roof steel to make up for the ones the builder bungled.

In the end, client gets a beautiful new building, builder gets to maintain his ego trip and happiness is maintained in post frame building land.

All’s well that ends well.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Building Overhangs, Roofing Materials, Constructing a Pole Building, Steel Roofing & Siding, Building Contractor, Trusses and tagged , , , , on by .

Sharing the Pole Barn Blame

Sharing the Blame

Welcome to 2017!

As you may recall, 2016 ended with me sharing an email from a builder who is constructing a new Hansen Pole Building and may possibly be a legend in his own mind.

Our company policy, when a challenge arrives, has always been to begin by looking to see what, if anything did we do wrong. In this particular case, we (and yours truly) share in some of the blame.

For you, gentle reader, I will paint a picture of the building in question, so you may get a better feel for the entire process.

The building is a 40 foot clearspan in width, 100 feet long with an eave height of 16 feet and five inches. It is designed under the 8th edition of the Massachusetts State Building Code, with a 90 mph (mile per hour) design wind speed and a 50 psf (pounds per square foot) design flat roof snow load.

It features 12 inch enclosed overhangs on all four sides, as well as three 14 foot wide by 14 foot tall overhead doors on one sidewall.

The most practical design solution actually (which is a rare case) turned out to be based upon the traditional “East coast” style of post frame construction, with a single truss spaced every four feet on top of “truss carriers” (beams) spanning sidewall columns generally every eight feet (other than at the overhead door locations).

This building happens to be narrow in width in relationship to length (1 to 2.5 ratio) and is fairly tall. As such, the wind load was great enough to exceed the shear resisting capacity of the steel roofing in the eight feet closest to each endwall.

In order to carry the load, the building was designed so the trusses in the affected areas would have a traditional ¼ inch butt cut (educate yourself on what a butt cut is here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/05/truss-butt-cuts/), while the balance of the trusses would have 11/16 inch butt cuts. This would allow for the top of all truss carriers to be placed at the same height, and 7/16” OSB (Oriented Strand Board – https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/10/osb-versus-plywood/) to be installed on top of the lower heel height trusses.

Pretty darn skippy sounding ……. Until we get to tomorrow!!

Yep – yet another cliff hanger!!

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Building Overhangs, Steel Roofing & Siding, Building Contractor, Trusses and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Not a building Under Construction

No This is NOT a Building Under Construction

Here is the story from the building owner…..

“When we pulled up here, about a quarter to 12 last night, is when I noticed I could see some insulation and then I got out and took a walk around and that’s when I saw that we had no roof,” Joel Hildebrandt said.

Hildebrandt is the co-owner of CJ’s Pet Center in Hawley, Minnesota. During the storm, one of his employees was inside when the damage happened.

“A year’s worth of hard work, not just dollars, and the time,” Hildebrandt said.

Hildebrandt says he’s thankful that no one was hurt.

“Everybody was wet, guests included, but everybody was safe,” Hildebrandt said.

The employee was able to survive the damage by hiding in the bathroom, away from windows.

Something everyone should do when the weather turns ugly.

not-under-construction

This building style is what I refer to as a four and eight building – it has columns along the eave sides spaced every eight foot on center, with trusses every four feet supported upon headers (also known as truss carriers).

This is also not a post frame building designed and provided by Hansen Pole Buildings. Our preference is to use a frame system where all of the trusses are doubled and attached directly to the columns. Purlins are attached to trusses with engineered steel hangers manufactured by Simpson Strong Tie (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/08/simpson/). We’ve solved the weakest links.

I had addressed a similar structural challenge, in regards to post frame building failures, back in April of 2014: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/04/nationwide-2/.

In the case pictured the purlin to truss uplift forces are one-half as much as would this be if trusses were every eight feet.

Still, I have always believed the purlins as fastened typically will not resist the applied uplift loads. The photo proves my point. The roof trusses are intact and still connected to the truss carriers, and the roof steel is still attached to the purlins (just no longer on the building).

When I do an analysis of a failure (or potential failure), I look for the weakest link. More often than not, the weakest link is actually human error.

In the pictured building, the weakest link ended up where I most likely would have guessed it would be.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building, Steel Roofing & Siding, Building Contractor, Trusses and tagged , , , , on by .
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